Simon Weil

It's impossible to avoid the anti-intellectual trend in this. So OK...Once upon a time Jazz as a whole was not burdened by all these damn fool intellectualizations. That was before Ellington got take seriously as art by those European critics. But they began in 1919 with Bechet being reviewed by Ansermet, and being set in a historical context (as the beginning of an art). Basically you can't separate the idea of Jazz as an art from the desire to think about it - which Jim so laments. Because, to think about it as an art is to say it is on more or less the same level as the highest human pursuits - as making a difference in the world as a statesman, or as a heart-surgeon or whatever. This is why Jazz is "As serious as your life". It is natural that one wants to think about these pursuits, set them in context, learn from them what one can. Because, in them, one finds what it is to be truly human. So it's natural that one should want to think about jazz. But, historically, this has a particular resonance. It's a racial resonance. Blacks were regularly denied the right to be fully human (Still are in many parts). They might thus NOT contribute on the highest human level. To discuss Jazz as an art is to articulate, implicitly, a belief in blacks as fully human. Historically, that is part of the reason it matters to think about Jazz in this way - and have this sort of discourse. Martin Williams does a riff on Bechet which kind of leads to this stuff. Simon Weil P.S. I also don't think we need any arguments for dumbing down debate in this day and age.

Don't know how that fits in, but here we go... I had one of those recently where I told my dad about his dad in the process of unravelling what he thought about me - and it went in. Because my father's father died before he (my dad) had truly had time to set himself right about that relationship, he had always been up in the air about it. That's a pretty standard thing apparently - that the parent finds out about his parent through the child. What this means is that - to take it wider - you need to be part of living history for past historical judgements, judgements made too close to the events to be fully resolved, to be revamped and set in their correct context. If the Jazz child but only lives in the past (cf Wynton), living history stops and so does this resolution/setting in context process. Martin Williams only half understood the avant-garde. Simon Weil

The guy was a close to a Great Jazz Writer as we've got, but Great this or thats are out of fashion these days, as well as the writing style that goes with that position. Also he was an intellectual (not perhaps a great one, perhaps that was his flaw) - and to some that equates to "stick up the butt". For me, he's flawed with the highest level of content of any Jazz writer. But I'm biased 'cos I love him. Simon Weil

"She can fix my plumbing any day or night With that joyous organ, fine and right."

Well, on the one hand, I'm not keen on the moral arm-twisting. But on the other, this all links in to whether you consider Jazz a "serious" music or not - as in: Or: And from Ayler: "Serious" is an integral part of the music IMHO. Simon Weil

Happy birthday you re(a)d (+white and blue) devil. Simon Weil

Ah, wonderful. Bend it, shake it, anyway you want it. Simon Weil

Well Wynton is the one who thinks he's at war: And here are a few shots he's fired in his little war: Seems like Wynton does a pretty good job of constructing himself as a hate figure (and I could go on). Course if he was suddently abducted by aliens (perhaps Free Music loving ones), the problems he represent wouldn't go away. He is a symbolic figure to a large extent. My personal feeling is that his time is up, in terms of being a central figure in Jazz - and we don't know what comes next. Yet. Simon Weil

Well...Murray and Ellison were actually contemporaries - and indeed pretty close friends (There's a book of letters between the two, edited by Murray - doesn't have any of the jazz as democracy stuff as far as I can tell). So they probably influenced each other. The thing about Ellison is he never took an overtly political position - in the sense that Murray, Marsalis et al have - of being involved with an ongoing campaign. Thus he always (I am reliably informed) rejected Marsalis's efforts to get him involved (i.e. identified) with the Lincoln Center. This may just have been that he was canny or it may be something else. I don't think you can doubt he was an influence on these men, but he wasn't schmuck enough to get involved with a political agenda which could easily become a liability in the way people remember his art. He's also never quite explicit about equating Jazz and Democracy. Simon Weil

The problem I have with Vol 2 is Stuart Nicholson, who I don't think is original. In that respect Vol 1 is better, Charles Fox actually having new things to say off his own bat. I do agree that these are much better than Penguin and I also agree that Harrison is a top class critic. My take on Penguin is that I think it is basically received wisdom. Simon Weil

That's a very good record. Bill himself wants it out. Simon Weil

I suppose at the back of my mind was the idea of doing a Mosaic select of just the fusion stuff. Admitedly this rather defeats Dr J.'s original intent, but I'm not sure that it wouldn't be a more logical way of getting this stuff out (in terms of amount of material/cost/consistency of music). But you'd lose the nice/loving full Mosaic box approach... Simon Weil

This is kind of irrelevant, but I just thought I'd mention that the 1st, 2nd and 4th of these records did actually appear in a boxed LP set (as it's a box set thread) from RCA France. I agree that this, I dunno: light fusion from Burton, is engaging stuff. I don't know how well the earlier stuff (not fusion) would meld with the later - I mean, in terms of selling points I guess it would make more sense to have an all-fusion box. But then I don't know the earlier. Actually, of all the fusion out there, this early Burton stuff is my favourite, partly for its restraint, partly just because of its specific sweet vibe - and it certainly should be out there in one form or another. I mean, it's historic. Simon Weil

Whoa, Chateau Latour! Happy Birthday, Brownie. Simon Weil

Yeah, it was Martin Williams in 65. The review's in Jazz Heritage. He actually just has one "very", but you've certainly got the sentiment right. I don't think Ratliff's really listened to the box, not really. My literary ear is hearing an equal mix of prejudice and received wisdom filtered through pumped up ego. At least Williams was honest when he didn't like the music. Simon Weil

Happy Birthday, Chris. Simon Weil

Thanks Brownie (got an Ayler article to write after the RSI goes). Simon Weil

Thanks Chuck. Simon Weil

Gary asked me to contribute to this thread, so.... I haven't been around for a while because I've got back/RSI problems which prevent me posting in an ongoing way. But I've got an article about late Coltrane which may be can be of interest: Circling Om This is a kind of wound-up (which doesn't help my back), intellectual article. Hope that's OK. Simon Weil

Yup, I'll be wanting to listen to that again. Simon Weil

I thought it was good but not great. Nobody on that program seemed up to evoking the stature of the man, so what you were left with was a piquaresque travelogue around America with bits of Coltrane thrown. Well, not quite, but the only way they had of evoking Coltrane's greatness was by the way the fans revered him. Porter was quite good - and said a lot of interesting things, including the admission about LSD - but it felt more of a taster than the main course. They were equivocal and quizzical about late Coltrane, but not damning. Simon Weil

Well, put me down as one of those crying foul on this development. Interviews are o.k. to hear once or twice, but to have two cds be nothing but interviews on what will be a very expensive set, is, to my view, terrible. I would much rather have nine complete cds of unissued music then seven. A big negitive move to my mind, and one which might affect my willingness to buy the set. This is a valid point, which I'm sure Revenant considered. The obverse of it, as Patrick Regan (who puts together the Ayler site) said is that there's so little interview material available. Not only does this make a brand new interview available, you also get to hear Albert's voice over an extensive period. I cannot tell you how often I have gone over the spoken introduction to "My name is Albert Ayler", listening to the nuances of tone and the trend of what he's saying - but also to the overall quality of his voice. Now granted this is a bit obsessive, but that's what this box is about - obsessive. You simply won't be buying 9CDs of the marvellous, if underrated, artist at a premium price if you're not pretty damn obsessed. Two CDs of intense listening for me, but I'm verbal. Simon Weil

What sort of angles is he going to come up with to do with obsession? I'd imagine we'll get the Church of John Coltrane thing. Jazz fanaticism is ripe for a bit of fun-making just like train-spotting. Some listeners obsessions with their heroes can get well out of proportion. Let's just hope that he can say something interesting and positive rather than turning it into another reality TV show about peculiar people (The man with ten thousand Coltrane records instead of the man with ten thousand Elvis suits!). I'm not holding my breath, however! I think "interesting and positive" is what I'm hoping for. In general Yentob's done things (or been associated with things) that have taken a kind of strange-but-positive angle on pop artifacts or popular culture (I remember that program on "My Way", for example). The stuff about "the following" goes to a popular culture rather than an art thing. Simon Weil [Edit: I'm just hoping he doesn't end up patronising Jazzers in some way.]

I've certainly seen Yentob at one Jazz concert - and this is his show, so I guess that's how it gets on at this hour and on BBC1. It'll be interesting to see his take. Simon Weil Edit: I'm wondering about this: What sort of angles is he going to come up with to do with obsession?

I like what Stephen Ambrose says: D-Day/Stephen Ambrose p25 This extraordinary event made by ordinary people. Simon Weil