Big Wheel Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I'm currently putting together a radio program that will air all of the material known to be recorded at the Vanguard. It's gonna be a biggie--I'm not yet able to check the exact times of all the records, but my guess is that it will run approximately four and a half days. I have a few questions, both general and specific: 1. The Vanguard's website lists all the albums released to date. However, I am not positive this list is truly exhaustive. Can anyone think of any albums that they fail to list? The Vanguard did not always feature only jazz, so some non-jazz stuff may be out there that they forgot about. 2. Is anybody aware of any bootlegs made at the Vanguard? These would be a wonderful addition if I could get my hands on them. 3. Does the Bill Evans Secret Sessions box overlap with any of the material on the Fantasy LPs "Re: Person I Knew" and "Since We Met?" Thanks a million! Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Here are a few that I know of that I don't see listed on the Vanguard site: Kenny Burrell - A Night At The Vanguard (Argo) Kenny Burrell - Generation (Blue Note) Kenny Burrell - Pieces of Blue and the Blues (Blue Note) from same dates as Generation Kenny Burrell - (Evidence) from same dates as Midnight At The Village Vanguard Arthur Blythe - Calling Card (Enja) from same dates as Retroflection Shirley Horn (CAN-AM) - probably a bootleg Johnny Griffin - NY Underground (Galaxy) Jazz Contemporaries - Reasons In Tonality (Strata East) Bill Lee - NY Bass Violin Choir (Strata East) Noah Howard - album on Intercord Steve Kuhn - The Vanguard Date (Owl Time) Joshua Redman - Wish (Warner Bros.) contains 1 track live at Vanguard (not same dates as Spirit of the Moment) Elvin Jones - albums on Honeydew (probably same dates as Enja album) Thelonious Monk - Straight No Chaser soundtrack (Columbia) Les McCann - How's Your Mother (32 Jazz) Carmen McRae - Woman Talk (Mainstream) Stan Getz - on Ingo - bootleg I think one of the Thad/Mel Solid States is missing also. There are probably hundreds of private tapes floating around from shows at the Vanguard. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I've been told there is a private tape of the Wayne Shorter Quartet at the Vanguard from 64-65. It's a actually a Sunday matinee of the Miles Quintet where Miles decided to stay home. Gary Peacock subs for Ron Carter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 (edited) August 1965 is the date I've heard for that tape. What is the source for Gary Peacock's being there? I also know of other times (Vanguard, June 1965) when the band without Miles was billed under Herbie Hancock's name, with Richard Davis on bass. I know of no date for Miles Davis at the Vanguard in 1964 - but I haven't really looked. If there is some documentation, I'd like to know about it. I know they did play there in November 1965 (Thanksgiving weekend). Mike Upon reflection, I don't see how 1964 would really be possible: Shorter joined the band on September 18 in California, by September 25 (Berlin) they were in Europe until at least October 11 (Milan) then November 11 they started at the Plugged Nickel until November 22. The Vanguard advertised the following: Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln in late October Bill Evans and Roland Hanna in early and mid November Mose Allison and Art Farmer and Janet Lawson in mid December. On October 29, Miles was busy hosting a party for Robert F. Kennedy. If there is other info out there, I'd love to know about it. Mike Edited March 23, 2003 by Michael Fitzgerald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Kenny Burrell - (Evidence) from same dates as Midnight At The Village Vanguard The material on this "companion" CD was (first?) issued in Japan on Paddle Wheel, under the title "From Vanguard With Love" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted March 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 Thanks, Mike. When you say "same dates", do you mean that the material entirely overlaps with the tracks from other albums (e.g., Succotash vs. Inventions and Dimensions), or that there are different tracks from the same recording sessions? Looks like all but the best boots are out, then. More than 5 days or so is out of the question. (anyone kind enough to hook me up with CD-R's of boots will have my undying gratitude, and will be duly credited on-air at the end of the whole shebang.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 23, 2003 Report Share Posted March 23, 2003 I do not mean reissue of the identical material, I mean additional tracks from the same recording sessions. Sometimes this involves another day - for example, August 3 and 4 for one album and August 4 and 5 for another. Prime example would be the "Waltz For Debby" and "Sunday at the Vanguard" albums by Bill Evans (and there was even additional stuff after those two!). Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Michael Fitzgerald wrote: (quote) August 1965 is the date I've heard for that tape. What is the source for Gary Peacock's being there? I also know of other times (Vanguard, June 1965) when the band without Miles was billed under Herbie HancocK (unquote) I heard the Wayne Shorter Quartet (with Hancock, Richard Davis and Joe Chambers) perform in a Greenwich Village small club (might have been Bloomers but can't say for sure. I remember the club was on the ground floor) in mid-September 1965. That's when Shorter and Hancock were playing dates in between gigs with Miles Davis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertrand Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 (edited) Mike, My source is a musician who himself got the information second-hand. All he told me was that he'd heard the tape, and that he was told '64 or '65 and that it was Peacock. I do not have a copy of this myself. You are right that it must be '65 - Shorter joined too late in '64. Brownie, You sure are lucky. I would have loved to hear the quartet you describe. It's a long shot, I know, but you don't happen to remember what tunes they played, do you? I've always wondered if Shorter played any of his Blue Note compositions when he was doing these quartet gigs without Miles (Jack Chambers mentions quite a few, and even a trio gig in Boston). I know he did some of his BN material when he played briefly with Roy Haynes. Bertrand. Edited March 24, 2003 by bertrand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted March 24, 2003 Report Share Posted March 24, 2003 Bertrand, sorry I can't remember the tunes that Shorter played 37 years ago. All I remember is that the Shorter unit was smoking. Also that it was a Sunday late afternoon gig. And the place was crowded. Wish I could go back! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebop Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Three recent additions to "live" Vanguard recordings are: Bruce Barth on MaxJazz Fred Hersch on Palmetto Tom Harrell on RCA Bluebird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 I think only the Barth is not listed on the Vanguard site. Do you have a recording date for it? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted March 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2003 That one is brand new, so it was probably recorded sometime in 2002. I'll double-check when I get back into Boston tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted April 5, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2003 (edited) The Barth was recorded in the first week of August 2002. By the way, I interviewed Chris Potter yesterday and he told me he will have a live Vanguard record coming out later in the year. Pretty sure I remember him saying that the group would be basically the same as the one on Traveling Mercies (Kevin Hays, piano and Rhodes; Scott Colley, bass; Bill Stewart, drums). Edited April 5, 2003 by Big Wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 I have the Wayne tape, I don't know when it was recorded but it is definitely Gary Peacock on Bass and I was told it was recorded at the Vanguard and that it was a Miles gig that he didn't show for. They played Eye of the Hurricane, Just in Time and Virgo among others I can't recall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted April 7, 2003 Report Share Posted April 7, 2003 (edited) Damn, how's the sound quality on that Wayne tape?? - (presumably from the mid-60's). I'd be interested in what the other tunes are too!! (Oh heck - why hide it - I'd be interested in getting a copy of it too. ) Edited April 7, 2003 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted April 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2003 (edited) Got a question about that Kenny Burrell Argo album. The station has "Man at Work," which is in this case a Cadet reissue of the original Argo LP, as well as a Jazz Time release from Spain or Portugal called "All Night Long" that seems to contain all the same material. But we also have this Chess 2LP reissue called "Recapitulation", Chess 2-ACMJ-408, which claims that it contains two tracks left off the original, "Tricotism" and "Afternoon in Paris". Can anyone verify that those two tracks are from the same live session? Edited April 15, 2003 by Big Wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted April 26, 2003 Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 Apparently Miles was called in to replace Jaki Byard. And reportedly Reggie Workman on bass - does that fit with your recollection? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted April 26, 2003 Report Share Posted April 26, 2003 Got a question about that Kenny Burrell Argo album. The station has "Man at Work," which is in this case a Cadet reissue of the original Argo LP, as well as a Jazz Time release from Spain or Portugal called "All Night Long" that seems to contain all the same material. But we also have this Chess 2LP reissue called "Recapitulation", Chess 2-ACMJ-408, which claims that it contains two tracks left off the original, "Tricotism" and "Afternoon in Paris". Can anyone verify that those two tracks are from the same live session? Sorry I didn't see this question sooner. I can't absolutely verify the dates, but there are at least 4 previously unissued tracks from the 1959 Burrell trio sessions at the Vanguard (not to be confused with the recordings from the Vanguard from decades later, which were first released in Japan). I have two CD's containing all the available '59 material (one on MCA- "A Night At The Vanguard", with the original cover art; and one on Charly/LeJazz- titled "Live at the Village Vanguard"), and the 4 previously unreleased tracks (two on each CD) are: "Afternoon in Paris", "Tricotism", "I can't see for lookin'", and "Cheek to cheek". I never bought that "Recapitulation" LP... it always confused me discographically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Thanks Jim. Got an 11th hour question about the George Russell "New York Big Band" LP. The Vanguard website has it in their list, and Russell's own website says "live at the Village Vanguard." But the liners say that "what one hears in this album is a simulation of a typical set" at the Vanguard. Unfortunately, the library's copy of the Lord discography ends right before the volume with letter R, for some reason. Was this in fact recorded at the Vanguard? It doesn't really sound like a live LP (no audience noise), and I imagine it was quite a task to record a big band in there, although they of course did it with Thad and Mel--but I can't think off the top of my head of any other large groups that recorded there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Lord just says New York, but that doesn't mean anything. Sometimes it says New York for stuff recorded at Van Gelder's. Are they saying that the *setlist* is a simulation - i.e., it's not a straight-through first-to-last recording, but with tunes taken from various sets and reconstructed? Is there no mention of a recording studio? The Thad/Mel/Vanguard band recorded about six live things there and the Slide Hampton Jazzmasters band was 12 pieces, pretty big. Also the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band (13). Recording a large ensemble can be as simple as having a pair of microphones on a single stand. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 1, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 I'm not sure what they're saying; to me the liners seem ambiguous. They do say that the one track recorded live in Sweden, "Cubano Be, Cubano Bop," was included "because Russell and co. frequently programmed it at the Vanguard." No mention of a studio in the liners, at all. One other piece of info that might be useful: Ricky Martinez plays electric piano and organ on the album. I don't know of any other Vanguard sessions that use either, though there are probably some sessions from the '70s that use Rhodes. Is the Vanguard an organ-friendly venue? Are there lots of stairs that make it difficult for a B3 player to get his instrument in there? August 16, 1978 was a Wednesday, which I guess isn't terribly helpful except in not ruling out the possibility of a live set, assuming Mel Lewis and the orchestra were still holding down Monday nights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdd Posted May 1, 2003 Report Share Posted May 1, 2003 Sorry but it took a long time to find the tape. Wayne Shorter at the Village Vanguard (I'm been told it's late 1964 a few times but maybe 1965) Eye of the Hurricane Just in Time Oriental Folk Song Virgo Fran Dance Theme Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock, Gary Peacock, Tony Williams The sound quality is OK. The performance amazing. Sorry I promised that I wouldn't make copies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Fitzgerald Posted May 3, 2003 Report Share Posted May 3, 2003 Organ has definitely been heard at the Vanguard, off the top of my head I know Tony Williams played there with Larry Young & John McLaughlin. It was reviewed in Down Beat. And John Abercrombie has gigged there with his organ trio. I'll see if I can pinpoint anything on the 1978 date through some periodical research. It was just a couple of weeks after Woody Shaw recorded there. Yes, Thad & Mel were playing Mondays at that time. From Coda #162 (dated August 1, 1978 - but that's not like a newspaper date) "The recent retrospective of his work at the Village Vanguard is rather late in coming - in actuality, too late." Down Beat June 15, 1978 has an upcoming listing for George Russell Big Band at the Vanguard "thru 6/4" - so it seems unlikely that they played there two months later. This is not absolute information, but it does start to sway the balance against the 8/16/78 album being recorded live at the Vanguard. I'll try to follow up with the definitive word - probably need to check newspapers. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted May 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 3, 2003 (edited) Something else that might be significant: "Cubano-Be, Cubano Bop," a track on the album recorded separately in Sweden, is listed explicitly as being "recorded live" in Sweden, while the other material simply says "Recorded in New York". (For the purposes of my show, it's a moot point--the Russell LP was playing on the air as I looked up this thread again.) The New York Times coverage of the Newport Jazz Festival lists the Russell orchestra as scheduled to play there on July 1, but it doesn't cover any of Russell's activities for the remainder of 1978. However, the Arts and Leisure Guide of the Times has a regular weekly section for "what's happening in the clubs". While it is covered every week in 1978 up through August 6, the Vanguard is not mentioned in the section between August 6 and November 19, when Abdullah Ibrahim is listed at the Vanguard. Was it possible the Vanguard's doors were closed during that time? Edited May 3, 2003 by Big Wheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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