king ubu Posted August 16, 2007 Report Posted August 16, 2007 some background reading: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/aaohtml/aopart9.html the cover - one of my favourites: Since this is sarting halfway into the week only, I still hope some will be able to give this classic album a spin and post some thoughts. I haven't actually prepared anything on such short notice, but I'll try and spin it again soon. So for now, just a couple of impressions: Coleman Hawkins' tenor solo on "Driva Man" smokes! It's one of the strongest statements ever committed to record by Hawkins, in my opinion. It's full of raw emotion, once he even squeaks, but doing a re-take was no option (I think they offered it to him but he didn0t want to do it again). Also how Max stresses the first beat in this 5/4 number, so as the old Hawk doesn't get lost is creating a great kind of groove, kind of a stop and go feel which I love. Then there's Abbey Lincoln... I never liked her, the one two/third of her Riverside albums and the Candid album are just so-so, I think. But hell, that was a long way from the bar singing stuff she did, looking cute and singing nicely, to the extremely emotional "Tryptich" on this album! That track is still now hard to take for me, it's just too much, actually, too much emotion, too much screaming... but it's real. One last thought for now: the afro stuff on the second half fits in with the general black movement and all in all this album is one of the highwatermarks of politically engaged jazz, for me. But then it's so good on a musical level, it could be about any kind of crap... but probably if it had been, it wouldn't have ended up being so good on musical terms... anyway, there's the Rollins Freedom Suite and a few other things from the era that I love, most notably the 1960 Randy Weston album "Uhuru Afrika" (Roulette, reissued on the Weston Mosaic Select). That Weston album should be much better known and be part of the "canon" together with the Rollins and Roach Freedom Suites, in my opinion! Quote
king ubu Posted August 16, 2007 Author Report Posted August 16, 2007 I was posting this while elsewhere this other thread got started: They took Max Sad news Thanks for all the great music, Max Roach! Quote
mikeweil Posted August 16, 2007 Report Posted August 16, 2007 anyway, there's the Rollins Freedom Suite and a few other things from the era that I love, most notably the 1960 Randy Weston album "Uhuru Afrika" (Roulette, reissued on the Weston Mosaic Select). That Weston album should be much better known and be part of the "canon" together with the Rollins and Roach Freedom Suites, in my opinion! Any of these would deserve being discussed as AOTW! Abbey Lincoln's Straight Ahead which I chose as AOTW not too long ago, is another piece of the puzzle. I remember Joachim Berendt taped the Roach/Lincoln unit with parts of the Suite for German TV - very impressive! He raved about it in his Jazzbuch, but it was oop at the time - it took me many years to get a copy, which was an Italian needle drop LP reissue. I also remember there was some dispute about the correct track order - now which one is it? Quote
mikeweil Posted August 16, 2007 Report Posted August 16, 2007 I was posting this while elsewhere this other thread got started: They took Max Sad news Thanks for all the great music, Max Roach! How sadly fitting! Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 The Candid disc I just bought a couple of weeks ago from UK amazon also is a needle drop - sucks! I have the Columbia LP (the one with the sweet photo of Max, instead of the great original cover photograph) already but wanted the CD as I rarely play any LPs... About Lincoln, as I said (I guess several times), I'm not a big fan, really... she's at her best to my ears, right on this LP, most other things I've heard haven't really convinced me. Quote
Eloe Omoe Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) I remember Joachim Berendt taped the Roach/Lincoln unit with parts of the Suite for German TV - very impressive! He raved about it in his Jazzbuch, but it was oop at the time - it took me many years to get a copy, which was an Italian needle drop LP reissue. I also remember there was some dispute about the correct track order - now which one is it? There's also this CD, which I have (I wonder if the dates are correct, or maybe it is the Berendt material?): Max Roach/Abbey Lincoln - Max Roach Live In Europe: Freedom Now Suite (Magnetic MRCD 110) Clifford Jordan (ts) Coleridge Perkinson (p) Eddie Khan (b) Max Roach (d) Abbey Lincoln (vo) "Old Fellows", Copenhagen, Denmark, January 14, 1964 Driva' Man Tears For Johannesburg Triptych: Prayer / Protest / Peace All Africa Freedom Day same personnel live in Stockholm, Sweden, January, 1964 Who Will Buy? Driva' Man Tears For Johannesburg Edited August 17, 2007 by Eloe Omoe Quote
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 I haven't got this, but thanks Ubu, for what you've said, particularly about Abbey. I've got "Abbey is blue" because Stanley & Tommy are on it, but don't like her much. But you've persuaded me I should put this on my list. MG Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 I can't use the reply-function and post as usual, I get to a page that allows me to edit this poll... I remember Joachim Berendt taped the Roach/Lincoln unit with parts of the Suite for German TV - very impressive! He raved about it in his Jazzbuch, but it was oop at the time - it took me many years to get a copy, which was an Italian needle drop LP reissue. I also remember there was some dispute about the correct track order - now which one is it? There's also this CD, which I have (I wonder if the dates are correct, or maybe it is the Berendt material?): Max Roach/Abbey Lincoln - Max Roach Live In Europe: Freedom Now Suite (Magnetic MRCD 110) Clifford Jordan (ts) Coleridge Perkinson (p) Eddie Khan (b) Max Roach (d) Abbey Lincoln (vo) "Old Fellows", Copenhagen, Denmark, January 14, 1964 Driva' Man Tears For Johannesburg Triptych: Prayer / Protest / Peace All Africa Freedom Day same personnel live in Stockholm, Sweden, January, 1964 Who Will Buy? Driva' Man Tears For Johannesburg I have this one, from Bremen - I guess neither of these are the JEB recordings (those would be from Freiburg, Baden-Baden or Stuttgart, I assume): Max Roach Bremen (DE), Radio Bremen, Grosser Sendesaal February 12, 1964 Clifford Jordon - tenor sax Coldridge Perkinson - piano Eddie Khan - bass Max Roach - drums Abbey Lincoln - vocals (#6-8) 1. The Highest Mountain (Clifford Jordan) 17:53 2. unknown (Ceciliana?) 7:05 [piano solo] 3. For Big Sid (Max Roach) 5:13 [drum solo, also known as "Mop Mop"] 4. Jordu (Duke Jordan) 7:04 [bass solo, acc. by piano & drums] 5. Sophisticated Lady (Duke Ellington) 6:09 6. Who Will Buy (Lionel Bart) 2:38 [omit ts] 7. Love for sale (Cole Porter) 4:06 [omit ts] 8. Lonesome Lover (Roach-Lincoln) 4:16 [inc] TT: 54:29 Sound: A- or A-/B+ Lineage: FM>7" tape reel>cass>CDR>EAC>HD Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 I haven't got this, but thanks Ubu, for what you've said, particularly about Abbey. I've got "Abbey is blue" because Stanley & Tommy are on it, but don't like her much. But you've persuaded me I should put this on my list. MG seems now it works again regularly - very weird... Anyway, MG, the album's a classic, really. And it's one of Roach's very, very best (I'd say together with the Brown/Roach material, if I'd had to select one, "Study In Brown", and "Percussion Bitter Suite" - those three might be the ones I'd pick if I had to). Hawkins' solo on "Driva Man" alone is worth the prize of admission! But be warned that the UK Candid version is a needle drop... not utterly bad quality, but Candid never had decent quality CDs, it seems... Quote
Rosco Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDhkuT2bhbc Too much Abbey, not enough Max, but still..... Quote
mikeweil Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) That's what I thought ... The TV recording I mentioned was taped in the Südwestfunk Studios at Baden-Baden, like most shows for Berendt's series "Jazz gehört und gesehen" (Jazz heard and seen). They had a special set decoration that's not on any of the YouTube videos. And there was more Max to be seen ... Edited August 17, 2007 by mikeweil Quote
Eloe Omoe Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 That's what I thought ... The TV recording I mentioned was taped in the Südwestfunk Studios at Baden-Baden, like most shows for Berendt's series "Jazz gehört und gesehen" (Jazz heard and seen). They had a special set decoration that's not on any of the YouTube videos. You mean the one that can be seen on the Coltrane-Dolphy video? Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 That's what I thought ... The TV recording I mentioned was taped in the Südwestfunk Studios at Baden-Baden, like most shows for Berendt's series "Jazz gehört und gesehen" (Jazz heard and seen). They had a special set decoration that's not on any of the YouTube videos. You mean the one that can be seen on the Coltrane-Dolphy video? They had those cool abstract movable walls or wall decorations, b/w graphics (maybe they were in colour, but tv was b/w then...) I have some video material from Roach around that time but I don't have it logged to my files, hence I'd have to dig it up first... pretty cool, though, with Clifford Jordan in prime form (the Bremen is audio only, just in case). Quote
Eloe Omoe Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 They had those cool abstract movable walls or wall decorations, b/w graphics (maybe they were in colour, but tv was b/w then...) I have some video material from Roach around that time but I don't have it logged to my files, hence I'd have to dig it up first... pretty cool, though, with Clifford Jordan in prime form (the Bremen is audio only, just in case). Your Bremen tape looks like the one that came out on LP as "Max Roach Again" (Affinity). The mysterious "Ceciliana" should be a"Siciliana" by Bach or Handel... Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 They had those cool abstract movable walls or wall decorations, b/w graphics (maybe they were in colour, but tv was b/w then...) I have some video material from Roach around that time but I don't have it logged to my files, hence I'd have to dig it up first... pretty cool, though, with Clifford Jordan in prime form (the Bremen is audio only, just in case). Your Bremen tape looks like the one that came out on LP as "Max Roach Again" (Affinity). The mysterious "Ceciliana" should be a"Siciliana" by Bach or Handel... quite so indeed, from the setlist, but the band given here is pretty different A1 This Night Mountain A2 Ceciliana B1 Mop Mop B2 Jordu B3 Sophisticated Lady C1 Who Will Buy? C2 Love For Sale C3 Long As You're Living D1 Kardouba D2 Stop Motion Bass - Bob Boswell (tracks: A1 to B3) , Eddie Kahn (tracks: C1 to D2) Drums - Max Roach Piano - Coleridge Parkinson* (tracks: C1 to D2) Saxophone [Tenor] - Clifford Jordan (tracks: C1 to D2) , Stanley Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Trombone - Julian Priester (tracks: A1 to B3) Trumpet - Tommy Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Vocals - Abbey Lincoln (tracks: C1 to C3) Tracks A1 to B3: Concert - Paris , February 1960 Tracks C1 to D2: Concert - Unknown location , circa 1961 Source: http://www.discogs.com/release/698455 Quote
Eloe Omoe Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) quite so indeed, from the setlist, but the band given here is pretty different A1 This Night Mountain A2 Ceciliana B1 Mop Mop B2 Jordu B3 Sophisticated Lady C1 Who Will Buy? C2 Love For Sale C3 Long As You're Living D1 Kardouba D2 Stop Motion Bass - Bob Boswell (tracks: A1 to B3) , Eddie Kahn (tracks: C1 to D2) Drums - Max Roach Piano - Coleridge Parkinson* (tracks: C1 to D2) Saxophone [Tenor] - Clifford Jordan (tracks: C1 to D2) , Stanley Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Trombone - Julian Priester (tracks: A1 to B3) Trumpet - Tommy Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Vocals - Abbey Lincoln (tracks: C1 to C3) Tracks A1 to B3: Concert - Paris , February 1960 Tracks C1 to D2: Concert - Unknown location , circa 1961 Source: http://www.discogs.com/release/698455 They have inverted the musicians' list. The group with Priester, Boswell and the Turrentine brothers plays only on the wrongly titled Kardouba and Stop Motion (AKA Juliano and La Villa). All the other tracks are played by the quartet w/ Jordan and Perkinson, plus Abbey Lincoln. "Long As You're Living" is wrong as well. It's "Lonesome Lover". Edited August 17, 2007 by Eloe Omoe Quote
mikeweil Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 (edited) They had a special set decoration that's not on any of the YouTube videos. You mean the one that can be seen on the Coltrane-Dolphy video? Yes, that's the one. Edited August 17, 2007 by mikeweil Quote
brownie Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 quite so indeed, from the setlist, but the band given here is pretty different A1 This Night Mountain A2 Ceciliana B1 Mop Mop B2 Jordu B3 Sophisticated Lady C1 Who Will Buy? C2 Love For Sale C3 Long As You're Living D1 Kardouba D2 Stop Motion Bass - Bob Boswell (tracks: A1 to B3) , Eddie Kahn (tracks: C1 to D2) Drums - Max Roach Piano - Coleridge Parkinson* (tracks: C1 to D2) Saxophone [Tenor] - Clifford Jordan (tracks: C1 to D2) , Stanley Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Trombone - Julian Priester (tracks: A1 to B3) Trumpet - Tommy Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Vocals - Abbey Lincoln (tracks: C1 to C3) Tracks A1 to B3: Concert - Paris , February 1960 Tracks C1 to D2: Concert - Unknown location , circa 1961 Source: http://www.discogs.com/release/698455 They have inverted the musicians' list. The group with Priester, Boswell and the Turrentine brothers plays only on the wrongly titled Kardouba and Stop Motion (AKA Juliano and La Villa). All the other tracks are played by the quartet w/ Jordan and Perkinson, plus Abbey Lincoln. "Long As You're Living" is wrong as well. It's "Lonesome Lover". The 1960 concert with the Turrentines and Priester was at the Alhambra theater on February 6. The Paris concert with Abbey Lincoln, Clifford Jordan, etc... was at the Théatre des Champs-Elysées if I remember right. Exact date was January 18, 1964. I was a delighted listener at both concerts! Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 quite so indeed, from the setlist, but the band given here is pretty different A1 This Night Mountain A2 Ceciliana B1 Mop Mop B2 Jordu B3 Sophisticated Lady C1 Who Will Buy? C2 Love For Sale C3 Long As You're Living D1 Kardouba D2 Stop Motion Bass - Bob Boswell (tracks: A1 to B3) , Eddie Kahn (tracks: C1 to D2) Drums - Max Roach Piano - Coleridge Parkinson* (tracks: C1 to D2) Saxophone [Tenor] - Clifford Jordan (tracks: C1 to D2) , Stanley Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Trombone - Julian Priester (tracks: A1 to B3) Trumpet - Tommy Turrentine (tracks: A1 to B3) Vocals - Abbey Lincoln (tracks: C1 to C3) Tracks A1 to B3: Concert - Paris , February 1960 Tracks C1 to D2: Concert - Unknown location , circa 1961 Source: http://www.discogs.com/release/698455 They have inverted the musicians' list. The group with Priester, Boswell and the Turrentine brothers plays only on the wrongly titled Kardouba and Stop Motion (AKA Juliano and La Villa). All the other tracks are played by the quartet w/ Jordan and Perkinson, plus Abbey Lincoln. "Long As You're Living" is wrong as well. It's "Lonesome Lover". The 1960 concert with the Turrentines and Priester was at the Alhambra theater on February 6. The Paris concert with Abbey Lincoln, Clifford Jordan, etc... was at the Théatre des Champs-Elysées if I remember right. Exact date was January 18, 1964. I was a delighted listener at both concerts! Thanks for clearing the Affinity info! Is any of that Paris material available on CD right now? I'd love to have seen Roach with any of these great bands... how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). I am happy enough to have seen Max live twice, once in that weird duo with Ibrahim (I mentioned it several times, won't repeat here), and once in quite a far-out setting, his Beijng Trio - I remember being impressed very much by that concert, back in 2001, by Max' open-mindedness, by the mere fact that he jumped into such territory (freely improvised, all or most of it), and even more so by the good outcome! Quote
Eloe Omoe Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). The Graz concert was the one where Hubbard got arrested on stage... Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). The Graz concert was the one where Hubbard got arrested on stage... Ha, that's funny! Have you heard his outbursts? It's all pretty pathetic... they should have just put a dumbass hat on his head for a few days instead of arresting him.... Quote
brownie Posted August 17, 2007 Report Posted August 17, 2007 how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). I am happy enough to have seen Max live twice, once in that weird duo with Ibrahim (I mentioned it several times, won't repeat here), and once in quite a far-out setting, his Beijng Trio - I remember being impressed very much by that concert, back in 2001, by Max' open-mindedness, by the mere fact that he jumped into such territory (freely improvised, all or most of it), and even more so by the good outcome! Yes I attended that Paris concert by the Max Roach quintet and the Sonny Rollins trio. It was held at the Salle Pleyel. I was also busy that night making sure that Cecil Taylor would be able to get into the Salle Pleyel. He wanted to hear Rollins very bad. Plus Albert Ayler who would play next at Salle Pleyel had problems at his hotel (lost luggage). The musicians with Roach were staying at he same hotel and I remember that Hubbard was complaining that the the stars of the show (that included Roach but neither Hubbard or Ayler!) were staying at a better hotel! Seemed that a lot of worthy people were in Paris at the same time Quote
king ubu Posted August 17, 2007 Author Report Posted August 17, 2007 how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). I am happy enough to have seen Max live twice, once in that weird duo with Ibrahim (I mentioned it several times, won't repeat here), and once in quite a far-out setting, his Beijng Trio - I remember being impressed very much by that concert, back in 2001, by Max' open-mindedness, by the mere fact that he jumped into such territory (freely improvised, all or most of it), and even more so by the good outcome! Yes I attended that Paris concert by the Max Roach quintet and the Sonny Rollins trio. It was held at the Salle Pleyel. I was also busy that night making sure that Cecil Taylor would be able to get into the Salle Pleyel. He wanted to hear Rollins very bad. Plus Albert Ayler who would play next at Salle Pleyel had problems at his hotel (lost luggage). The musicians with Roach were staying at he same hotel and I remember that Hubbard was complaining that the the stars of the show (that included Roach but neither Hubbard or Ayler!) were staying at a better hotel! Seemed that a lot of worthy people were in Paris at the same time Oh man, I wish I'd been there, too! You better start writing your book now and digging up all the photos, too - a photo book with some shorter and longer stories in between, how great that woud be! (That's one for the "books I'd read if they'd exist" thread...) Quote
mikeweil Posted August 24, 2007 Report Posted August 24, 2007 I'd love to have seen Roach with any of these great bands... how about the 1966 tour with Hubbard/Spaulding/Mathews/Merrit (double bill with Sonny Rollin's trio), brownie - did they also stop by in Paris (I have parts of Graz and Stockholm concerts). I once had an Italian LP on the Ingo label with the Rollins and Roach bands from that tour. Sound quality was lousy, so I sold it. Solos were too long, I thought. Only one and two tracks per side. The Roach band played Nommo at a rather hectic pace which killed the 7/4 groove. Quote
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