AOTW July 17 2005

[Guy Berger]

1. Extras

2. Echoes

3. From Before

4. Love Song

5. Tee

Tony Williams: drums

Sam Rivers: tenor saxophone (1, 3-5)

Wayne Shorter: tenor saxophone (1, 3, 5)

Herbie Hancock: piano (3-5)

Gary Peacock: bass (1, 3-5)

Edited July 14, 2005 by Guy

[Guest akanalog]

purchasing this album as a freshman in college-i hated it.

repurchasing it months ago, i think it is great.

tony williams up until about 1972 or 73 could make any date worth hearing for me.

this one is no exception-even his solo feature is interesting.

for some reason i remembered from college that this album was pretty out and was surprised on my relistening that it is in fact not too far outside. the most inside track i guess is "love song" which has a nice little theme to it.

anyway, nice choice and i love the cover.

[Chuck Nessa]

Interesting choice. I bought this when it was issued ('cause I loved Lifetime) and still really don't know if I like it or not.

[tonym]

Bought this about 6 years ago (the Japanese version) because I was convinced with that line-up it had to be a great disc. I was staying with friends that night and they let me use their stereo to play it when they turned in for the evening. I remember now how much I loved it at first listen; just the contrasting sounds of Rivers and Shorter (the first solo by Shorter always reminds me, for some reason, of his solo on 'Country Son') on 'Extras'. Oddly though it's been a while since I last heard it ( a year maybe).

As with all the other AOTW selections I will have to get back onto this album.

Very good choice.

[clifford_thornton]

I will withhold all comment til the actual date, other than

[sidewinder]

Good choice. I have a vinyl of it and I'll dig it out.

[Jazz Kat]

I understand this is his pre-"hard hitting" days..

Haven't heard this one yet, but great cover!

[Man with the Golden Arm]

.:. hipped me to this a few years back. It will be good to read all the comments about this one.

I'm going to go and re-read the liner notes now.

[Guest akanalog]

Interesting choice. I bought this when it was issued ('cause I loved Lifetime) and still really don't know if I like it or not.

←

mr. nessa...i am curious...

so you seem to enjoy a lot of high quality jazz. why are you unsure of this album? do you like your avante more AACM-ish?

not that this is so avante an album but i guess it is a challenging listen...

to me, "turn it over" is a challenging listen too!

or do you just find this album possibly compsitionally or technically weak?

Edited July 15, 2005 by akanalog

[clifford_thornton]

I'm going to go and re-read the liner notes now.

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[mikeweil]

Thanks for the excuse to re-listen to this.

[mikeweil]

anyway, nice choice and i love the cover.

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Yes, but a small photo of Tony would have made it a lot cooler.

[.:.impossible]

The compact disc logo always ruins the composition.

I'll be listening to this disc again very soon! I haven't participated in an AOTW in a while. It's about time I listen to this one again. Thanks!

re: liner notes

My copy doesn't have any. Instead, there's a crossword puzzle that is extremely difficult and, in my opinion, overly obscure. I haven't gotten a single clue!

[Chuck Nessa]

Interesting choice. I bought this when it was issued ('cause I loved Lifetime) and still really don't know if I like it or not.

←

mr. nessa...i am curious...

so you seem to enjoy a lot of high quality jazz. why are you unsure of this album? do you like your avante more AACM-ish?

not that this is so avante an album but i guess it is a challenging listen...

to me, "turn it over" is a challenging listen too!

or do you just find this album possibly compsitionally or technically weak?

←

Nothing wrong with the date and lots of things good. These are some of my favorite players of that era. For some reason I just don't "connect" with it. Not the fault of the date - just one of those things.

[JSngry]

Sometimes, sometimes. I get the feeling that this is one of those albums where everybody was so into floating that they lost sight of the ground. Or else decided that the ground didn't have to exist in the first place. Which for them, at that moment at that time, it didn't. Almost like the notion of "permanence" of any sort had become obsolete. Well, ok, I can dig that, but what's the point of recording it then?

But that's just a sometimes thing. Sometimes I can get into where they're at just perfectly. So it's probably more a matter of where I am when I listen to it rather than where they were when they were playing it.

[chuckyd4]

But that's just a sometimes thing. Sometimes I can get into where they're at just perfectly. So it's probably more a matter of where I am when I listen to it rather than where they were when they were playing it.

←

That pretty much perfectly sums up my feelings about this record. But then again I have a fair amount of music like that in my collection. At least that ensures that no matter what kind of a mood I get into there will be some kind of music to accompany it.

[clifford_thornton]

Gary Peacock was UN-FUCKING-REAL at this point and this is one of those albums on which he is recorded in a way that you can really hear what he's doing. He's like the Rashied Ali of the bass, in my mind.

[Guy Berger]

OK, here goes:

I guess the first thing that's interesting to me is that if you were to tell someone who hadn't heard this CD that it was an avant-garde session from August 1965 with two tenor saxophonists, they'd probably imagine something quite different from what appears on this album. Six weeks prior to this session, Coltrane recorded Ascension, and Pharoah would join his live band about six weeks later. But this music is almost the opposite of Trane's ecstatic, spiritually-oriented 1965 recordings -- it's an extremely introverted and cerebral date. And it's also different from another a-g prototype -- the more "folky" (for lack of a better term) sound of Ornette's group with Dewey Redman. You have two of the most "brainy" tenors of the era matching wits, slithering and snaking past each other.

The second thing that's interesting to me is that it's one of 5 albums recorded by Miles Davis's sidemen for BN between E.S.P. and the Plugged Nickel engagement -- the others are Maiden Voyage and 3 Shorter albums. Personally it's my favorite or 2nd favorite, depending on how I feel about Et Cetera on any given day. But it's quite different mood-wise than most of those other albums or the two Davis recordings I mention.

The third thing is that Sam was Wayne's immediate predecessor in Miles's band. Each has a very distinct sound and identity, but in listening to this album I'm struck by their similarities as well. That very thoughtful, dry sound. On a few of the tracks they have a very hypnotic synergy -- like those haunting trills that open up "From Before".

I have a flight to catch tomorrow morning but I'll write more thoughts on the individual tracks later in the week.

Guy

Edited July 17, 2005 by Guy

[wolff]

Recently, I read a post putting down BN due the fact that, they found a formula. Owning about 250+ BN's, from 1948-1971, I thought the poster was a wannabe expert, if not a total idiot.

This album, along with about 75 other BN's I have, fit into no formula I know of, except the liner notes. WTF happened there?

This is one of the LPs I spin when I want to be awakened. I hear real beauty, and, OTOH real pain/confusion. Not unlike some Pepper from the Vanguard. Is it Sam Rivers that brings this?

All I know is, if I could only keep 100 of my 2500 LP's, this would be one of them.

Enjoyed the previous posts and looking forward to others...pro or con.

[tonym]

OK, here goes:

I guess the first thing that's interesting to me is that if you were to tell someone who hadn't heard this CD that it was an avant-garde session from August 1965 with two tenor saxophonists, they'd probably imagine something quite different from what appears on this album.  Six weeks prior to this session, Coltrane recorded Ascension, and Pharoah would join his live band about six weeks later.  But this music is almost the opposite of Trane's ecstatic, spiritually-oriented 1965 recordings -- it's an extremely introverted and cerebral date.  And it's also different from another a-g prototype -- the more "folky" (for lack of a better term) sound of Ornette's group with Dewey Redman.  You have two of the most "brainy" tenors of the era matching wits, slithering and snaking past each other.      Guy

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It's definately a more considered effort than the other discs recorded during this period. I wonder if Tony Williams was intent on producing something more 'studious' than say, the rawness associated with the Plugged Nickel sets, the Berlin and Tokyo dates or the more straight-ahead approach he exhibits on Maiden Voyage.

Bearing in mind it's essentially two of Miles' groups playing here; they sort of sound like it but you'd be very surprised if his trumpet sound popped up over the proceedings wouldn't you?

I do think that the Peacock-Williams-Rivers combo could have had a future, satisfying the demanding connoisseur of the more thoughtful, less muscular excursions into freebop (for want of a better term).

It's definately an intriguing album. Certainly hard to pigeonhole.

Which is nice.

[fent99]

Its been a while since I heard this and mostly I remember being disappointed. Both of the sessions that Tony leads on Blue Note are disappointing to me and don't stick in my mind as his work with others at the same time especially the Jackie McLean stuff where he is truly amazing.

I'll need to revist though and I've been coming more around to Rivers who I find a tough nut to crack...

[marcoliv]

It's definately an intriguing album. Certainly hard to pigeonhole.

Which is nice.

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[mikeweil]

It's definately a more considered effort than the other discs recorded during this period. I wonder if Tony Williams was intent on producing something more 'studious' than say, the rawness associated with the Plugged Nickel sets, the Berlin and Tokyo dates or the more straight-ahead approach he exhibits on Maiden Voyage.

I think you're into something here.

Tony was very young (19) and very aware of what was going on around. I remember some statement he had rather played with Cecil Taylor. He virtually grew up with Sam Rivers around in Boston, who was one of the most advanced and complete players on the scene. So this records is his past and present. It was Tony who talked Miles into calling Sam Rivers into the band.

Somehow I wonder what it was beyond money, exposure and the great rhythm team that kept Tony in Miles' band - he was so daring. Even after he left Miles - his Lifteime was much rawer than Miles' electric bands.

At the same time he was a true African-American intellectual. I wish he would have made more records as a leader for Blue Note.

[mikeweil]

BTW - my copy of the 1987 Blue Note CD doesn't have any liner notes, just the credits .... ..... but there were some on the LP? I can't remember.

If anyone posted them here I'be very grateful.

[JSngry]

I wish he would have made more records as a leader for Blue Note.

Hell, he made eight!