Oscar Peterson – why did those greats disliked him

[Alon Marcus]

I remember reading somewhere that Miles didn't like Oscar's playing. In his famous downbeat blindfold test Thelonious asks the way to the toilet when Leonard Feather puts Oscar on.

blindfold test by monk

My question is why?

Do you agree with the giants in this case?

Personally I like Peterson very much. Every recording he did before his stroke is a gem. It's true that his playing is flashy but he is fast and brilliant.

So why Miles and Monk didn't like him?

Have you heard other opinions about him (positive and negative)?

Edited March 25, 2005 by Alon Marcus

[Bright Moments]

thanks for posting the blindfold test! B-)

[kh1958]

Perhaps because Monk heard Art Tatum in person and Oscar Peterson is just a decent imitation of Art Tatum?

[J.A.W.]

That Monk BFT is a classic.

[take5]

If that's true that Miles & Monk didn't like Peterson's playing, I would guess that it's because they, especially Miles, were very serious about "space" in music, something Peterson sometimes neglects.

[John Tapscott]

Seems like Monk didn't like ANYONE that day. A strange cat, but we knew that, didn't we?

Well, Peterson has always had his detractors (critic Martin Williams, among others, didn't like him), but musicians who've actually played with him, like Ray Brown, seem to hold his playing in very high regard. Hank Jones has spoken highly of OP, and that's someone who knows something about piano.

But does it really what others think of him? What matters is what you think of him. If you enjoy him (as I do), then listen to him. If you don't, then listen to someone else. But I have to tell you - I can't imagine anyone listening to the 5 CD's from the London House and not being very, very impressed and often moved by the brilliance of OP's playing. Peterson has matured and developed considerably since his earliest recordings (one of the signs of a true artist in my view). I don't think he sounds all that much like Tatum (and I'm not alone in that opinion), though he freely acknowleges Tatum as his idol. But listen to them back to back, and I think you'll notice quite a difference.

[Dmitry]

Miles didn't like anybody else who was successful.

Monk just needed to take a leak.

[catesta]

Seems like Monk didn't like ANYONE that day. A strange cat, but we knew that, didn't we?

Yep.

Peterson can play.

[jazzbo]

London House was the Peterson that finally made me a big appreciator. I can't listen to Peterson for days, but I do like his playing and its swing and energy. It's a whole nuther animal than Monkian piano, and that's all to the good. There probably was a nonmusical reason that added to Monk's dramatic reaction. . . .

[Alon Marcus]

I certainly like his playing very much. After I started the thread I recalled an article by Gene Lees that I read few years ago (about Bill Evans of course). The interesting fact is that they both had an admiration for each other (another interesting trivia is that they were born almost on the same day: Oscar – August 15th, Bill – August 16th). So I guess there were many greats that liked Peterson either.

[Alfred]

Miles didn't like anybody else who was successful.

...

Good point. Chet is another example.

Peterson's 'London house' and 'Schwarzwald/MPS' sessions are great! I also love the 1954 Harold Arlen Songbook w/ Herb Ellis & Ray Brown.

[doubleM]

I don't agree w/ the sentiment that Miles didn't like anybody else that was successful. He liked Sinatra, Hendrix, Prince, Ahmad Jamal...etc. I think that a more erudite explanation would include OP's style.

[JSngry]

Peterson had previously made some derogatory comments about Monk's playing in an interview or some such, something to the effect that Monk wrote prety ballads but was a poor pianist. Monk's reaction in the BFT was his response to those comments.

Myself, with only a few exceptions, I don't really dig Peterson simply because I find his playing to be a glorification of the obvious.

[Guy Berger]

I don't agree w/ the sentiment that Miles didn't like anybody else that was successful. He liked Sinatra, Hendrix, Prince, Ahmad Jamal...etc. I think that a more erudite explanation would include OP's style.

It boils down to the fact that Miles liked pianists with a light touch and plenty of space in their playing. That's why he liked guys like Ahmad Jamal, Red Garland, Tommy Flanagan, Bill Evans, Wynton Kelly, and Herbie Hancock, and why he disliked OP and McCoy Tyner.

Guy

[brownie]

If Oscar Peterson was good enough for jazz giants like Coleman Hawkins Ben Webster, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Stuff Smith, Louis Armstrong, he was good enough for me...

[JSngry]

If Oscar Peterson was good enough for jazz giants like Coleman Hawkins Ben Webster, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Stuff Smith, Louis Armstrong, he was good enough for me...

Well, he was good enough for Norman Granz anyway...

[cannonball-addict]

I think it's fair to say that both Miles and Monk were minimalists to some degree. They were also both innovators. Miles, stylistically. Monk, harmonically and compositionally.

It's not entirely about leaving space but it's about contemplating what you're gonna play in your solo that brings something new to the table. Monk and Miles playing on anybody else's tunes would invariably bring something new to the table. OP, though a great pianist with tremendous technique, would not always do so. It would be a rehashing of Tatum, Bud Powell and James P. Johnson.

Also, OP played the same ideas over and over and over. Listen to any OP record and tell me where he doesn't repeat himself in a solo. Rhythmically his triplet patterns get really old really fast. He could play but so what if Miles and Monk didn't dig?

Guys like Miles and Monk were into originality. I think they lived by a mantra that went something like this: "If it ain't new or you played it already on this tune on this sitting, lay out until you think of something entirely fresh or a different way to phrase it."

Perhaps that's the reason for the space in Monk and Miles' playing.

[brownie]

If Oscar Peterson was good enough for jazz giants like Coleman Hawkins Ben Webster, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Stuff Smith, Louis Armstrong, he was good enough for me...

Well, he was good enough for Norman Granz anyway...

Which is OK by me, too. Norman Granz had excellent taste (well... most of the time!). He also had pretty good taste for naming his record labels (Verve, Pablo).

And if I remember well, the usually acerbic Cecil Taylor had some nice things to say about Peterson. I don't have the AB Spellman book 'Four Lives in the Bebop Business' with me now but I seem to recall that in the chapter about CT, Cecil Taylor dismissed Art Tatum but had some praise for Peterson even if he complained about his European technique.

Edited August 28, 2004 by brownie

[J.A.W.]

If Oscar Peterson was good enough for jazz giants like Coleman Hawkins Ben Webster, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Stuff Smith, Louis Armstrong, he was good enough for me...

Well, he was good enough for Norman Granz anyway...

Which is OK by me, too. Norman Granz had excellent taste (well... most of the time!).

I don't see it that way. However interesting the opinions of others may be, they don't determine what or whom I like or don't like.

Edited August 28, 2004 by J.A.W.

[brownie]

Hans, agree with you. But the subject of this thread was about how other jazz giants view Oscar Peterson.

I also happen to be a fan of Oscar Peterson!

[J.A.W.]

Hans, agree with you. But the subject of this thread was about how other jazz giants view Oscar Peterson.

You're right, but I was merely responding to your posting "If Oscar Peterson was good enough for jazz giants like Coleman Hawkins Ben Webster, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Dizzy Gillespie, Count Basie, Billie Holiday, Stuff Smith, Louis Armstrong, he was good enough for me..."

I also happen to be a fan of Oscar Peterson!

I'm not

Edited August 28, 2004 by J.A.W.

[brownie]

Hans, that's OK. I'm no fan of a number of highly-rated musicians

[B. Goren.]

Hans, that's OK. I'm no fan of a number of highly-rated musicians

brownie,

This is a little bit off topic, but please give me names. Maybe this is a good topic for a new thread.

[robviti]

Personally I like Peterson very much. Every recording he did before his stroke is a gem. It's true that his playing is flashy but he is fast and brilliant.

i think you already have an inkling as to why some people don't like op. your original statement contained the words "it's true that..., but..." that's a concession. i don't know if it was miles' and monk's reason, but i've never been particularly drawn to op primarily because often he is too flashy for my taste. imo, his style of playing lacks the enduring subtlty (aka space) of players like tommy flanagan, hank jones, and others whom i really like. i like op's trio best when it accompanies horn players like sonny stitt, roy eldridge, or ben webster. that's because i think op was better able to control his excesses on some of these dates. still, one person's excess is another person's brilliance.

[jazzbo]

I've changed my mind somewhat on OP. I don't really like a lot of the trio with bass and guitar material, I think a drummer gives me more to be interested in and helps OP somewhat to be a bit sparer. As I said above the London House box, which I got rather cheaply on ebay along with some other members, helped prod me further into his camp, though listening to his work as an accompanist/musical director (?) for Granz helped me on my way (he occasionally put down some brilliant solos on those records, and his general organization and the cohesion he helped foster in his section mates helped a lot of sessions to gel). I think if you get deeper into his music some of these excesses appear eventually to be less about flash and drama and more about fleet thinking and trying to get more in there than others may . . . . Anyway, I can't listen the man all day, but I can enjoy his music, in solo and trio (with bass and drums) formats the most. . . .

I don't really think it matters TO ME why Monk or Miles or any number of other "greats" disliked him. . . . In many cases there are going to be extramusical reasons (I find that often to be the case with Miles!)

Edited August 28, 2004 by jazzbo