The Definitive, Jazz Factory etc. quality check

[neveronfriday]

Hi everyone,

I'm European.

I don't have much cash to feed my jazz habit.

I'm aware of the copyright discussion.

That said, it seems to me that, often quietly, a whole bunch of people on this board are buying Definitive, Jazz Factory etc. discs as offered by freshsoundrecords.com or whoever.

I've started that too. I don't have all that many, but searching this board here, I often get brief glimpses of someone saying this or that "reissue" sounds great or didn't live up to the buyer's expectation.

Well, I wouldn't mind hearing from those people who have releases by the above-mentioned (or other) labels (under that umbrella) and can comment on the sound quality. As we all know, some of the releases were ripped off from other much more pricey box sets, some are exclusive to Definitive and yet others are, well, a shoddy job.

So, if you dare, let's hear it for or against these "reissues" quality-wise (not copyright wise ... that, I think, has been covered).

Three releases I'm very happy with are these:

Bob Brookmeyer: Complete 1953-1954 Quintet Studio Recordings with Stan Getz. Definitive 2004 (2 CD). Good sound, maybe not as good as the two below.

Chet Baker. The Original Quartet, Sextett & Septett with Russ Freeman. Complete 1953-1954 Studio Recordings. Definitive 2004 (2 CD). Great sound. I really enjoy these.

Chet Baker/Gerry Mulligan. The Original Chet Baker & Gerry Mulligan Quartet. 4 CD Complete Recordings (4 CD). Definitive 2004. Ditto for the sound here. Sounds excellent to me.

I have ordered their (3 CD) Jazz in Hollywood box because it was recommended elsewhere on this board recently.

Cheers!

P.S.: I'm especially wondering about their Basie issues:

Complete Original American Decca Recordings - 3 Cd Set

Complete Original American Rca Victor Recordings - 3 Cd Set

Complete 1941-1951 Columbia Recordings -3 Cds Set

Complete 1936-1941 Columbia Recordings - 4 Cd Set

Can anyone comment on these? I'm mostly interested in the sound quality as compared to other releases.

[brownie]

I have ordered their (3 CD) Jazz in Hollywood box because it was recommended elsewhere on this board recently.

Deus, that one is a very legitimate issue. Fresh Sounds had access to and worked from the original material. Excellent box indeed that comes with a great booklet.

As for the Basie material from Disconforme, I have kept away from getting those and stick to the LP Basie collection I have. Being an incurable optimist, I am still waiting for Mosaic to do the Basie Columbia sides right!

Like they did for the Chet Baker and Gerry Mulligan boxes that Definitive is cloning.

But I may fall for the Brookmeyer (how amusing the transformation of Stan Getz sides to Bob Brookmeyer ones). Verve can complain all they want now, THEY should have reissued these sides a long time ago!

[P.D.]

But I may fall for the Brookmeyer (how amusing the transformation of Stan Getz sides to Bob Brookmeyer ones). Verve can complain all they want now, THEY should have reissued these sides a long time ago!

No more than

" The complete Paul Desmond Storyville Sessions"

He also lead the Oberlin and Pacific College sets.

Edited June 22, 2004 by P.D.

[neveronfriday]

There must be a lot more people here who have some Definitive discs? Let's hear what they are like, sound quality and all. Who's got the Basie discs and can comment on the quality?

Cheers!

[JohnS]

I've tried to resist Definitives output because of the rip-off issue but in the end I couldn't resist the DeFranco/Clark cds. I've also ordered the Getz/Brookmeyer. As Brownie says Verve could have reissued these years ago.

[couw]

Listening to Art Pepper - Complete 1947-1951 Small Group Studio Recordings now. This is a very nice disk that collects some pretty interesting Pepper sides. Two Babs Gonzales tracks stand out a little on the corny side, but nothing to detract too much from it all. Sound quality is very much okay considering the age of these recordings. I haven't a clue what the original source of these is, whether it's a rip off or vinyl transfers or what. Anyhow, the package is nice, inspite of the crappy nearly non-existent liners.

...and listening to those Babs Gonzales tracks again: these are quite funny actually, just that they don't fit at all with the rest of the music on the disk. The soloing of Pepper and JJ Johnson throws some interesting deep contrast on Babs's scatting.

Edited June 23, 2004 by couw

[jazzbo]

I love all the Babs Gonzales I have ever heard. . . My favorite is "St. Louis Blues" but he never fails to entertain me.

I've compared the Definitive Basie Columbias to the French lp set of the masters on cdr. I prefer the sound from the French lps, occasional vinyl glitches and all. They are more immediate and lively.

[RDK]

One issue that's rarely raised - but should be discussed - is the problem of balancing the profit potential of some of this material versus the "legal" costs of releasing it.

Someone above mentioned that the DeFranco box was essentially "okay" to purchase since Verve could have but didn't (and won't?) release it. But for Verve to officially release it, they would need to pay for all licensing rights per the stricter U.S. copyright laws, thereby making it a more expensive product that would still only appeal to a relatively small fraction of their audience. (Heck, even Mosaic only sells between 3-5000 copies of mostr of their box sets these days.) In short, there's not much profit potential for Verve - making these "legal" reissues a bad business deal.

Now Definitive can put out the same set for much cheaper - partly because their licensing costs are much cheaper (and perhaps because they "steal" their "masters"). Offered at a lower pricepoint (one not practical for U.S. companies) and because they are essentially an indie label with less overhead, they could sell the same number of copies and make some money off of it.

A lot of folks around here complain about the grey area of European copyright law and how it steals from the artists and record labels, and while some of that may be true I think in the case of a lot of the more obscure artists (and I'd toss DeFranco in there, at least among the general public) it would be financial impossible for a U.S. company to release some of this stuff with the expectation of making a profit - so they don't. Thus the only way this stuff could come out, short of some record collector's needle drop, is through a cheap Euro edition. Unfair? Yeah, probably. But perhaps the only way for us to ever hear this music on CD. And I'm not sure if the situation will ever get better as time passes, these artists are forgotten by the younger generations, and fewer of us "old folks" are still interested in buying this stuff. Let's face it - a lot of what we like could be considered "historical recordings."

[neveronfriday]

Keep 'em coming.

Someone also PM'd me re the Basie discs which seem to be quite good. Thanks for that.

I'm thinking of raiding the freshsoundrecords.com website after I get paid for one of the bigger web projects I'm finishing at the moment, and a couple of kilos of CDs should be possible. I'll be using this thread (and any more PMs) as a kind of "shopping list".

So, if you can recommend any other sets or single discs, please do.

Cheers!

[montg]

as time passes, these artists are forgotten by the younger generations, and fewer of us "old folks" are still interested in buying this stuff. Let's face it - a lot of what we like could be considered "historical recordings."

Ideally, a non-profit organaization with public funding (Smithsonian perhaps) would take an interest in leasing the masters from Verve of some of the more obscure jazz artists, clean them up and present them. A small gov't subsidy to support this art form seems reasonable to me.

I'd be interested in hearing about the sound quality of some of the reissues where the freshsound folks presumably are working from originals since the 50 year copyright isn't expired on them: I have in mind stuff like the Jimmy Hamilton release (Swing low sweet clarinet originally from Everest I think), the jazztone recordings of Coleman Hawkins, and this Ruby Braff release from Stereo-craft

and this Pepper Adams release