Monk and Miles

[Hardbopjazz]

Does anyone recall the Miles and Monk tune where it appears that Monk forgets where he's at in the tune and Miles has to start playing the head to lead him back in?

[brownie]

'The Man I Love' take 2 on the Prestige album 'Miles Davis and the Modern Jazz Giants'.

[couw]

I still think it is fair to interpret the whole thing a bit differently, namely that Monk was feghing with Miles BIGTIME, listen to the solo on Bag's Groove, where Monk revels in two notes for a small eternity, like saying "you want cool? you want barren solos? here's a barren solo. suck on that mister and don't you come whining when the shit hits hard."

Monk did some darn tricky stuff on that Man I Love (take 1) solo that was issued and tried do outdo HIMSELF on the second take. Now Monk can outdo Miles any minute of the hour, but can never outdo himself, that's like asking God to recreate paradise, it can't be done.

Maybe Miles wanted the second take and Monk was not really sure why a second take should be made, maybe it was getting late, maybe Miles was getting on his nerves too much, who knows. My guess is Monk for one tried to outdo himself which is bound to end in desaster, but also tried to fegh up Miles when apparantly he lost himself and just let the tape roll without playing a note, sorta like saying: "eat this."

At least I think it's a better story for a Monk/not Miles fan.

[brownie]

Dan Gould, I'm sure you mentioned the incident when you interviewed Bob Weinstock. Could you let us know what he said about it?

Would rather hear his take on this rather than the one from (I Hate Miles) couw :rsmile:

[couw]

I hope Dan did address this famous incident/session. What I was getting at is that apparantly this session was laden with some heavy non-like-tees between Miles and Monk. Now whatever the verdict on Miles may be, Monk remains a monster of his own and I would expect him to face Miles's antipathy (if ever there was such a thing, but that's what the stories tell us) head on. And while it may not get to the stage where he would fegh up a recording, I do think Monk was playing a bit with Miles at least on that Bag's Groove solo.

And THAT is a solo my dear jazz friends. THAT is the REAL stuff that dreams are made on. Incredible... and it DOES beat Miles at his own turf.

And I don't like Miles's part of that turf one bit....

[Hardbopjazz]

'The Man I Love' take 2 on the Prestige album 'Miles Davis and the Modern Jazz Giants'.

Thanks, I have to listen to it tonight. I had read once, that Monk told someone, it was intentional, part of his solo.

[mikeweil]

Maybe Miles wanted the second take and Monk was not really sure why a second take should be made, maybe it was getting late, maybe Miles was getting on his nerves too much, who knows.

That could be part of it, as it was indeed the last tune recorded at the session.

[Dan Gould]

Sorry folks, I feel a bit foolish, but this was the first I'd heard of this little "incident", so I didn't know I should have asked Weinstock about it.

[mikeweil]

I just compared the two takes.

Monk ignores Miles' routine of not having to comp behind Miles after the piano solo, he continues right through Miles closing solo and the theme, and the performance almost falls apart - Percy Heath seems unsecure, Miles not at terms with what Monk plays behind him, and it's probably due to the studio time deadline approaching that Miles didn't breakdown the take.

On the second take Monk follows the routine in the end theme, but stops playing during the B section of his chorus. This to me resembles a method he later often applied with his own groups: he plays a chorus or part of a chorus and lets the bass and drums keep on playing. Now of course this is against Miles' esthetics and group conception ... so he he waits for a few bars and then drops in. Monk reacts with an unexpected fast time solo part and finishes his chorus. Maybe he was thinking about what to do. His solo on the first take is fascinating, but what he did on the second take is better, more precise, as if the first take had been a rehearsal. He hits all those chords in exactly the right places, but then in the B section he either decided to lay out or changed his mind or whatever. He would have nailed it in a third take, but seemingly studio time was running out, and Miles and Weinstock were getting impatient? I do not expect Weinstock to remember every detail after 50 years!

Had they given Monk the chance of a third take or even a fourth, it would have been perfect. But that was not Miles' concept of the song.

Monk may have disliked the fast chorus tempo: Listen to his version on the Black Lion sessions; He stays in the slower tempo, and uses his dissonant chords to great effect - he actually hears the stride references in the tune, which is something Miles probably didn't care much for.

To me, a clash of totally different concepts of one song.

Swing Spring from this session, BTW, although credited to Miles, always sounded like a Monk tune to me. At least it is very close to some things Monk has written, and considering Miles wasn't much of a composer and frequently "borrowed" tunes from other writers .....

[brownie]

Several aspects of this recording session:

- the recording date was December 24, 1954, Christmas eve.

According to various reports, the session was due to start at 2PM. Three quarter of the MJQ (Jackson, Heath, Clarke) were at the studio on time. Monk arrived a bit late. Miles was the last one to arrive. He immediately started complaining about the musicians on hand, meaning Monk. That probably set the right mood for the session. The session went well into the evening. Things went into action with the musicians rehearsing the tunes that were to be recorded.

- Swing Spring is a Miles tune. Don't recall there was any doubt about this (contrary to so many of Miles attributed compositions). Monk does not seem to have ever claimed it.

- Ira Gitler who was present at the start of the session but who left before the incident ran into Kenny Clarke that Xmas night at Minton's and asked him how the session went. Klook just replied that Miles Davis was great!

Whatever went on that day produced superb music. Isn't that what really matters?

And imagine spending Christmas night at Minton's and getting a chance to listen to Kenny Clarke...

[JSngry]

Rumors abounded for years that Miles punched Monk at this session.

[brownie]

Rumors abounded for years that Miles punched Monk at this session.

Even Miles would not have dared! Monk was much, much bigger!

Monk is reported to have said when someone mentioned a physical attack that Miles would have ended in his grave if he had dared!

[Dan Gould]

Rumors abounded for years that Miles punched Monk at this session.

Even Miles would not have dared! Monk was much, much bigger!

Monk is reported to have said when someone mentioned a physical attack that Miles would have ended in his grave if he had dared!

Was Miles into boxing at this point? I don't think so, so I guess you're right.

[brownie]

Rumors abounded for years that Miles punched Monk at this session.

Even Miles would not have dared! Monk was much, much bigger!

Monk is reported to have said when someone mentioned a physical attack that Miles would have ended in his grave if he had dared!

Was Miles into boxing at this point? I don't think so, so I guess you're right.

Yes, Miles was into boxing by 1954. He was a great admirer of Sugar Ray Robinson. He was interested in boxing from his childhood days in East Saint-Louis.

The John Szwed book 'So What' mentions drummer Stan Levey as having taken Miles Davis to boxing training gyms when they roomed together in the mid-40s.

About the 'Man I Love' session incident, Szwed quotes Monk as ''scoffing at the idea of a fight: 'Miles got killed if he hit me''.

There was another Miles-Monk incident a few months after the 'Man I Love' date when the two played together at the 1955 Newport Jazz Festival. After the concert, they both rode back together in a limousine. This is Szwed's account of what happened:

'And then, in the limo back to New York, Monk told him (Davis) that he hadn't played 'Round Midnight' correctly. 'So what?' Miles replied. He didn't like the way Monk had accompanied him and suggested that Monk was jealous of the reception he had received. At that point, Monk angrily got out of the car and walked on alone to the mainland ferry.'

It was Miles' performance at the 1955 Newport festival that started a new turn to his career.

The full Miles Davis/Thelonious Monk Newport appearance was published on the 'Miscellaneous Davis, 1955-1957' CD from Jazz Unlimited. It is a delight!

[mikeweil]

Peter Keepnews gives a similar view of things in his notes to the Prestige Monk box set, quoting the sames remarks by Miles and Monk about what would have happened if Miles had hit Monk - even Miles in his autobiography admitted he would have been crazy to do that.

Keepnews also assumes the personnel may have been Bob Weinstock's idea, at least in part. I doubt Miles would have hired Monk. Miles and the complete MJQ, that would have been a great idea. But Miles and Monk ..... Of course, both are playing great stuff on this session, but as I stated, their musical concepts are so different ... and Miles' big ego and Monk's stoicism were a dangerous combination.

Monk was deeply rooted in the Harlem stride tradition, and I don't hear much of that in Miles.

[mikeweil]

Rumors abounded for years that Miles punched Monk at this session.

I think way too much has been made of this, as often is the case - most people look for the spectacular, especially with individualists like Miles and Monk.

IMO the musical differences, which are the root of Miles complaining about Monk's comping, are much more important.

[Guy Berger]

Keepnews also assumes the personnel may have been Bob Weinstock's idea, at least in part. I doubt Miles would have hired Monk. Miles and the complete MJQ, that would have been a great idea. But Miles and Monk ..... Of course, both are playing great stuff on this session, but as I stated, their musical concepts are so different ... and Miles' big ego and Monk's stoicism were a dangerous combination.

And yet, the music is so amazing, perhaps because of the clash in musical personalities. This is one of my favorite Miles Davis sessions -- definitely my favorite pre-KoB.

Guy

[mikeweil]

Jack Chambers' analysis of the session in his book "Milestones" - thanks to other board members for the recommendation - sums it up nicely. Any body else took up this book after reading this thread?

[Guy Berger]

Jack Chambers' analysis of the session in his book "Milestones" - thanks to other board members for the recommendation - sums it up nicely. Any body else took up this book after reading this thread?

I was actually prompted to buy this album after reading the Chambers book. I wish I had the book here so I could transcribe the segment for you guys. Chambers suggests that since Monk executed the slow solo fine on the first take, it would have been pretty unlikely for him to botch on the second.

Guy

Edited May 29, 2004 by Guy Berger

[medjuck]

Jack Chambers does give a great summary of reactons (including his own) to the session though I think the quotaton from Stanley Crouch he cites is not about Bemsha Swing as he says it is but rather about one of the other numbers (I forget which one right now). I've never been able to find the original Crouch article. Anyone know where it's from?

[wesbed]

On 'The Man I Love' (take 2), Monk quits playing at about 5:28. The bass and drums continue to roll. I agree with mikeweil that this sounds absolutely normal for Monk. It seems Monk has often quit playing, suddenly, on his own recordings, and let the bass and drums beat their own path.

The odd thing, here (take 2), to me, is how Miles comes back in with some 'confused' trumpet playing, for a very short time, after Monk quits, then Monk pops back in and starts playing faster and louder, competing with Miles' trumpet, immediately following the piano silence. It's as if Monk and/or Miles both desire to be the 'leader' of the session.

While Monk and Miles were both 'cool' in their own way -- for me, Miles had to work to be cool. Miles was aware of trying to set an image to say, "Look at me everybody, I'm cool. Call me Mr. Cool. Cool Miles."

Monk, on the other hand, simply didn't care and was 'cool' as a result. Monk had the dark sunglasses, the cool as-all-get-out hats, the odd rhythm, the cool foot tapping motion, and the unique movement of his hands/arms around the piano.

I'm not sure Monk was really fekking with Miles on this session. I think Monk was just being Monk, doing his own thing, like Monk always did, and Miles didn't like the idea of being 'out cooled.'

Edited May 30, 2004 by wesbed

[Guy Berger]

The odd thing, here (take 2), to me, is how Miles comes back in with some 'confused' trumpet playing, for a very short time, after Monk quits, then Monk pops back in and starts playing faster and louder, competing with Miles' trumpet, immediately following the piano silence. It's as if Monk and/or Miles both desire to be the 'leader' of the session.

I don't think Miles's playing is "confused", except insofar as he has no clue why Monk has stopped. His playing (repeating a dissonant phrase three times) prior to Monk's re-entrance sounds like he's saying "Monk, wake up you MF, it's still your turn to solo!"

Of course, Monk is perfectly awake.

Guy

Edited May 30, 2004 by Guy Berger

[tooter]

I can only add what I heard of a Milt Jackson interview some years ago. He was asked about Miles telling Monk to lay out during his solos because "he played the wrong chords"! Bags said that there was no real antipathy between the two of them, just "like an artistic thing". Was he being diplomatic then?