New Monk bio in progress by Robin Kelley

[7/4]

Misterioso No More: Book Debunks Image of a Jazz Giant

By BEN RATLIFF

.

[AllenLowe]

good piece - I still think no one's gotten it quite right on Monk's mental issues; though I love the book, there is not a single mention of Aspergers or autism, two related conditions that clearly need to be considered, re: Monk.

here's a passage from a different book:

"Who was Thelonious Monk? No one really seems to know, though toward the end of his life (he died in 1982) the pianist was revered as the last of jazz's great eccentrics and offered large amounts of money (which he refused) to perform in public. The very things which had once made his music so difficult and incomprehensible to many—the odd melodic turns of phrase, the percussive primitiveness of his touch, the unresolved dissonances, and, most of all, his reputation for inscrutable eccentricity—were now, in a more modern and tolerant age, the stuff of marketer's dreams... From his earliest days as a professional musician Thelonious Monk had gone his own way... Though his stance—his absolute refusal to do anything but play his music in his own way, without compromise—was seen by many as heroic, it was more likely the only choice he had. In truth, Monk had a kind of artistic tunnel vision, something which was to his and jazz's benefit, though he was lucky to have a built-in support system—his wife and, later, record companies, promoters, and booking agents—that allowed him the luxury of such a principled life."

[jazzbo]

Harry Colomby should defintely have been mentioned in that paragraph.

I haven't gotten much more than halfway through the book, but my own experience with mental health issues in a loved one lead me to believe that we'll likely never really know the "mental issues" and we are probably better off that way. It's very nice to know how much of what Monk wrote and how his career evolved was the result of his philosophy of dealing with the world. I am getting a sense of that from Kelly's book.

Edited October 17, 2009 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

I've been listening to this this morning as I read the book. This is a nice release, available cheaply these days due to Concord deletions. A Monk tribute done right.

[Lazaro Vega]

Just watched the Straight, No Chaser documentary for the first time tonight, on 7/4's recommendation.

Wow! That was amazing. All of the footage was fantastic...I particularly like the performances in London, I think, with the Octet ( Johnny Griffin on sax). I wanted doc to keep going and going, but yes in the end it left me with more questions than answers. So, I'm very happy to see this thread on the new biography and to see that virtually everyone is pleased with it thus far. This moves to next position on the to-read list.

That scene after the first Octet performance, I think it was, where they mess up bad? The low camera angle as Monk in his coat walks away from the camera into a room, and there's a styrofoam coffee cup on a low table and Monk just wacks it, hard, out of complete and total anger as he goes buy. That, too me, was the most humanizing moment in the film. When I saw that this whole "he's crazy and lives in his own world of music like a little baby" media contrived persona was demolished with that cup.

[Norm]

Just watched the Straight, No Chaser documentary for the first time tonight, on 7/4's recommendation.

Wow! That was amazing. All of the footage was fantastic...I particularly like the performances in London, I think, with the Octet ( Johnny Griffin on sax). I wanted doc to keep going and going, but yes in the end it left me with more questions than answers. So, I'm very happy to see this thread on the new biography and to see that virtually everyone is pleased with it thus far. This moves to next position on the to-read list.

That scene after the first Octet performance, I think it was, where they mess up bad? The low camera angle as Monk in his coat walks away from the camera into a room, and there's a styrofoam coffee cup on a low table and Monk just wacks it, hard, out of complete and total anger as he goes buy. That, too me, was the most humanizing moment in the film. When I saw that this whole "he's crazy and lives in his own world of music like a little baby" media contrived persona was demolished with that cup.

Yes, that was the scene, but it was really the whole scene because I really felt it showed how the music grew or broke down very honestly. I think one of the songs performed in it was "Evidence." I mean, the whole documentary was fantastic, but I just felt right there with that scene in particular....like I was in the room.

[Brad]

The book is reviewed in the NY Times Sunday book section. Gets a good review.

[7/4]

The book is reviewed in the NY Times Sunday book section. Gets a good review.

note post 113 & 126.

[Brad]

Ratliff's review is different than the other one but saw that you posted on the other one. You might try saying something like "I posted it above," instead of the curt way you did.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Brad

[marcello]

I'm reading it now and diggin' it.

A lot.

[AllenLowe]

continues to impress - the reading I went to on Tuesday night was pretty awful - mostly because Randy Weston went into several long and annoying speeches about the old days and about how the beboppers, unlike these kids today, dressed nice and were all clean family men (sic) - I was sitting next to a well-known critic/writer, and we just both shook our heads (as he pointed out, Weston has had numerous wives and children; not to mention the usual bebop mental disturbances, drug use, and just plain debauchery) -

Weston also informed us that the first slaves were playing the blues.

oy veh. I will continue to read the book, in spite of this.........

[7/4]

Ratliff's review is different than the other one but saw that you posted on the other one. You might try saying something like "I posted it above," instead of the curt way you did.

Sorry neighbor, I didn't mean to offend!

[AllenLowe]

I accept your apology.

[Brad]

Ratliff's review is different than the other one but saw that you posted on the other one. You might try saying something like "I posted it above," instead of the curt way you did.

Sorry neighbor, I didn't mean to offend!

You didn't. I was the one who acted like a jerk. Guess too early on a Sunday morning

[7/4]

Ratliff's review is different than the other one but saw that you posted on the other one. You might try saying something like "I posted it above," instead of the curt way you did.

Sorry neighbor, I didn't mean to offend!

You didn't. I was the one who acted like a jerk. Guess too early on a Sunday morning

OK! No worry!

[Chuck Nessa]

We are all jerks. That's how we got here.

[7/4]

I like this photo from the Ratliff article:

[AllenLowe]

will relate a Dick Katz story - when Hall Overton was preparing the arrangements for the Town Hall concert, Dick got the assignment to ferry music back and forth between where Overton was rehearsing the band and Monk's apartment - this all happened over an 8 hour period and Dick reported that the whole time Monk was working on the same song, every time Dick arrived -

amazing perseveration, though a common symptom of various disorders, though sometimes such things work to a musician's advantage -

[Chuck Nessa]

"perseveration" - what a wonderful word.

[AllenLowe]

just to assist:

"Perseveration:

a. Uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder.b. The tendency to continue or repeat an act or activity after the cessation of the original stimulus.2. The act or an instance of persevering; perseverance."

and:

"Asperger's syndrome is a pervasive developmental disorder, or autistic spectrum disorder, recognizable by the lack of social skills and the often highly intellectual, perseverative interests developed by those with Asperger's. "

Edited October 19, 2009 by AllenLowe

[blajay]

"Asperger's syndrome is a pervasive developmental disorder, or autistic spectrum disorder, recognizable by the lack of social skills and the often highly intellectual, perseverative interests developed by those with Asperger's. "

Whom are you quoting?

[AllenLowe]

ye olde internet source, will have to find it again - but that is a completely accurate statement. I have a 21 year old son with Pervasive Development Disorder/NOS. I know the condition and its definitions, as I've read more than a few books on it and listened to many a doctor.

[seeline]

just to assist:

"Perseveration:

a. Uncontrollable repetition of a particular response, such as a word, phrase, or gesture, despite the absence or cessation of a stimulus, usually caused by brain injury or other organic disorder.b. The tendency to continue or repeat an act or activity after the cessation of the original stimulus.2. The act or an instance of persevering; perseverance."

and:

"Asperger's syndrome is a pervasive developmental disorder, or autistic spectrum disorder, recognizable by the lack of social skills and the often highly intellectual, perseverative interests developed by those with Asperger's. "

Yeah - excellent definition/description, and I can see how the possibility of Apergers (or something similar) could relate to Monk. Though knowing how rudimentary our understanding of autism (and the "spectrum" of disorders) is to this day, I can't imagine that docs in the 60s and 70s would have even caught that, or known how to deal with it if they had. (We still weren't out from under the profound misunderstanding of such conditions that came via psychoanalytic folks like Bruno Bettelheim.) I grew up around some autistic kids (I'm in my early 50s) and *nobody* understood what was wrong or how to help them. Most often, autistic people - and those with Aspergers - were mistakenly seen as "retarded," as so-called "idiot savants" and worse.

I'm glad Monk was able to do as well as he did, out there in the real world. (Truly.) And I'm very much looking forward to reading the book - my copy should be here early this week.

Edited October 19, 2009 by seeline

[jazzbo]

I really don't get the sense that Monk had autism or Asperger's syndrome. To me his behavior seems to fall in line with what I know of bipolar disorders, especially perhaps "mixed states."

Regardless, he had his way of dealing with the world. . . and succeeded in time despite the inflexibility that could plague him. And because he resisted certain practices and behavior on the part of others, he was able to do so often on his terms, and there's real value in that.

I'm up to the second stay at the Blackhawk. This is a great book.

[AllenLowe]

another thing that leads me to believe, very firmly, that he was on the autism spectrum (which includes many high functioning people) is physical - his movements, the awkward physicality, are classic for these type of people. I've know manic depressives and bi-polar people, and it is a much different thing.

the PDD (Pervasive Development Disorder) thing is quite common in creative people who are largely socially dysfunctional - in jazz, think Lester Young, Bud Powell, Benny Goodman, among others. Only a theory, of course, but spend some time around these people, as I have, and the signs are instantly recognizeable. (one interesting tell-tale sign: Lester Young shows up to a recording session wearing a suit and bedroom slippers - PDD people are usually sensory defensive and cannot wear tight clothing and are constantly struggling with sense issues and what they wear, and tend to adjust accordingly.)

Also, be aware that it often coincides with other conditions -

Edited October 19, 2009 by AllenLowe