New Blue Note 45rpm sets

[Dan Gould]

but hey, Steve & Hoffmanite sycophants-- cut it at 78 for optimum fidelity & let us jew you down from the inflated faux-"collector" price, edc will make an honest listen & review the final product.

Anti-Semitic slurs are not cool, Clem.

[Dan Gould]

Be that as it may, and yes, "gyp" is equally offensive, doesn't mean you need to indulge in the same behavior, whether you're commenting on his choice of words or not.

[Parkertown]

Ya know...there are times when I feel like changing the lyric quote in my signature line...but it's so appropriate...especially when hanging out on this board...

You know who you are.

[porcy62]

Ethnic offense a part, if a "A trumpet should sound like a real trumpet, a sax like a real sax. Anything else is just wasting your time.", how can you remaster electric instruments or heavily edited music like Pet Sound, Dark Side of The Moon or Sgt. Pepper's, where, supposendly, the "real sound" should be the original first pressing of vinyl, that includes mastering as well? Because AFIK recording and mastering are parts of the same process, and the output is the record in the shop.

Hoffman doesn't like Rudy's mastering AND recording, but likes DuNann's job (and I agree about DuNann's greatness), but IMHO Bird should sound like real Bird, Trane like a real Trane and Sonny like a real Sonny, was Hoffman there at those times?

[porcy62]

Another thing about Rudy, you may dislike his sound, but you have to worship him for his job with musicians. As every musicians knows, the "good mood" in the studio plays a big role for great performances. His remastering job may be dabatable, like Hoffman's one, at least in this forum, but Rudy's passion and respect for musician's job allowed us to enjoy such a big legacy of wonderful music, that I find ungrateful ranting at Rudy only because the piano sounds "unidimensional".

Edited September 15, 2007 by porcy62

[six string]

Another thing about Rudy, you may dislike his sound, but you have to worship him for his job with musicians. As every musicians knows, the "good mood" in the studio plays a big role for great performances. His remastering job may be dabatable, like Hoffman's one, at least in this forum, but Rudy's passion and respect for musician's job allowed us to enjoy such a big legacy of wonderful music, that I find ungrateful ranting at Rudy only because the piano sounds "unidimensional".

Cheers porcy. From what little I know (since I wasn't there), this has a nice ring of truth and I certainly want to believe this myself. The only title in this group of records I may indulge myself is Basra. I have a Japanese RVG remastered cd as my only source of this great album and if I was going to allow my curiosity to get the best of me, this would be the title I would do that with. It's a lot of money to spend on a reissue and getting up after every song is not something I want to do. If I could find an affordable original, I would get it instead.

[Christiern]

Sorry Porcy62, but Rudy was not one who created a good or relaxed mood in the studio (as many engineers, indeed, do). He could be quite brusque. However, he had good ears and that is something musicians detect and respect. I always liked and got along splendidly with Rudy, but there is an odd tendency to place him on a pedestal by himself. That pedestal needs to be big enough to accommodate several engineers and--lest we forget--producers. Who brought these musicians into the studio? Who set the direction or approved the session? Blue Note did not spin a wheel to come up with the ingredients that perpetually caress our ears.

[porcy62]

Sorry Porcy62, but Rudy was not one who created a good or relaxed mood in the studio (as many engineers, indeed, do). He could be quite brusque. However, he had good ears and that is something musicians detect and respect. I always liked and got along splendidly with Rudy, but there is an odd tendency to place him on a pedestal by himself. That pedestal needs to be big enough to accommodate several engineers and--lest we forget--producers. Who brought these musicians into the studio? Who set the direction or approved the session? Blue Note did not spin a wheel to come up with the ingredients that perpetually caress our ears.

Thanks, Chris.

I wasn't there so I don't know. My sources are the musician's interviews I read, and I hardly recall any complaining about VG job. I didn't intend to place him on a pedestal. And I didn't intend to understimate the major role of producers, how I could, I work in the broadcasting industry. What I wanted to say is that a recording session, like shooting a movie, it's much more complex and difficult to handle then remastering existing tapes. You have to manage a lot of things, often it's a matter of luck, everything went well, from musician's mood to tape recorder machine, or something went wrong: mics failed and a cat is drunk and plays too loud or too low. So it's too easy, and as I said ungrateful, to complain about the "lack of air between instruments" after 50 years of technical progress in audio industry. Maybe Hoffman will do a better job in remastering VG tapes then VG himself, but, as Paul said, he wouldn't have any tapes w/o VG, and Lion, of course.

[six string]

Sorry Porcy62, but Rudy was not one who created a good or relaxed mood in the studio (as many engineers, indeed, do). He could be quite brusque. However, he had good ears and that is something musicians detect and respect. I always liked and got along splendidly with Rudy, but there is an odd tendency to place him on a pedestal by himself. That pedestal needs to be big enough to accommodate several engineers and--lest we forget--producers. Who brought these musicians into the studio? Who set the direction or approved the session? Blue Note did not spin a wheel to come up with the ingredients that perpetually caress our ears.

Thanks, Chris.

I wasn't there so I don't know. My sources are the musician's interviews I read, and I hardly recall any complaining about VG job. I didn't intend to place him on a pedestal. And I didn't intend to understimate the major role of producers, how I could, I work in the broadcasting industry. What I wanted to say is that a recording session, like shooting a movie, it's much more complex and difficult to handle then remastering existing tapes. You have to manage a lot of things, often it's a matter of luck, everything went well, from musician's mood to tape recorder machine, or something went wrong: mics failed and a cat is drunk and plays too loud or too low. So it's too easy, and as I said ungrateful, to complain about the "lack of air between instruments" after 50 years of technical progress in audio industry. Maybe Hoffman will do a better job in remastering VG tapes then VG himself, but, as Paul said, he wouldn't have any tapes w/o VG, and Lion, of course.

I knew exactly what you were saying Porcy62.

[clifford_thornton]

touche, Porcy. & c'mon Dan-- you know what I was doing-- happy new year! edc could have just replied, quizzically

gypped

???

but that wouldn't have gotten ya'll's attention, would it? i'm personally for 1000% full freedom of speech but you do need serious chops to pull it off.

BTW, Florida's biggest musical star of the moment, Plies, intended to call his debut album

The Real Ni**a Bible

(edited just to save Organissimo accidental, dopey grief)

which is a GREAT title, on a lot of different levels but the label persuaded him to change it to The Real Testament.

it's terrific record, btw, pretty misapprehended by "purist" (yanqui) hip-hop dorks & the media but the streets understand. don't be overly swayed by the radio hit, "Shawty," if you don't like it so much, tho' even that's remarkably well done, & odd, for what it is.

What about...

[Teasing the Korean]

Looks like a Mexican standoff.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sometimes silly arguments by folks who have never been there/done that. If we can make the jump to compare making a recording to making a movie, it might be helpful. The producer (if he's more than a stopwatch mechanic) has done a bunch of work before the session and has an image of the finished tape much like a film director. The engineer works as the recording producer's vessel (like a cameraman) to reproduce the "imagined" sounds. These sounds do not necessarily need to sound as they would in the imaginary listener's living room or in a concert hall or club. It just has to sound as imagined for the project. The ultimate burden is on the musicians (actors) for a great performance. One variation from the film analogy is the strength/ego of the leader to exert power over the others. On second thought, it might be the same in the movies with the exception of the leader being the "writer" too.

Edited September 16, 2007 by Chuck Nessa

[Christiern]

Well said, Chuck.

[porcy62]

Well said, Chuck.

Thanks Chuck, it's exactly what I had in mind, but I couldn't express. A part the fact that a movies is much more complex.

[clifford_thornton]

Indeed.

Especially if Maria Schneider (the actress) is involved.

[user0815]

expensive limited collectors editions that are sold via online stores will not attract any new listeners ... if anything they perpetuate the image of jazz being a music for middle-aged kitsch collectors, a big turn-off for younger people -_-

[Claude]

expensive limited collectors editions that are sold via online stores will not attract any new listeners ... if anything they perpetuate the image of jazz being a music for middle-aged kitsch collectors, a big turn-off for younger people -_-

That's what RVG CDs and iTunes downloads are there for. Different markets. Most jazz fans won't even know these LP reissues exist.

But you would be surprised at how many audiophiles buy these $50 LPs without actually knowing the music. On the SH forums, questions like "I'm new to jazz, which 45rpm sets should I get?" are not rare

There is now some interesting technical info (and opinion) on the mono/stereo aspect on the website, and pictures of the master tape boxes (now stored at Iron Mountain facilities):

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html

Edited September 16, 2007 by Claude

[user0815]

That's what RVG CDs and iTunes downloads are there for. Different markets. Most jazz fans won't even know these LP reissues exist.

yes, but this is what the critics in this thread are saying ... it's not about the music ... at best it's about the sound ... at worst it's about creating kitschy artifacts for collectors ("limited editions")

But you would be surprised at how many audiophiles buy these $50 LPs without actually knowing the music. On the SH forums, questions like "I'm new to jazz, which 45rpm sets should I get?" are not rare

hoffman should simply start a 500 volume series of 45rpm sets called "best of east-european polka music" ... that should be enough to keep his customers base happy (and in permanent debt)

[user0815]

... and pictures of the master tape boxes (now stored at Iron Mountain facilities):

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html

the tape boxes that are pictured on this site ... these are the master tapes for producing the original lp's, right ?

but, these are not the original session tapes, right ?

these master tapes are dubbed from the original session tapes ... or am i wrong ?

Edited September 16, 2007 by user0815

[djcavanagh]

But you would be surprised at how many audiophiles buy these $50 LPs without actually knowing the music. On the SH forums, questions like "I'm new to jazz, which 45rpm sets should I get?" are not rare

I was amazed when I saw this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeS View Post

Any idea what price point these will be at?

Let's assume $50 each.... by my calculator's calculations for 63 titles it will total $3,150 (not including shipping).

Time to start a paper-route & mow some neighbor's lawns.

I was just thinking my Jazz library needed more than the big 3 (Miles, Coltrane, & Brubeck for me). Looking forward to these

So the guy presumably has KoB, A Love Supreme and Take Five?

I can understand people wanting to have the best sounding versions of music that they love but it seems ridiculous to me to buy music simply because the remastering job is fantastic.

Different strokes and all that I suppose.

[Dan Gould]

But you would be surprised at how many audiophiles buy these $50 LPs without actually knowing the music. On the SH forums, questions like "I'm new to jazz, which 45rpm sets should I get?" are not rare

I was amazed when I saw this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeS View Post

Any idea what price point these will be at?

Let's assume $50 each.... by my calculator's calculations for 63 titles it will total $3,150 (not including shipping).

Time to start a paper-route & mow some neighbor's lawns.

I was just thinking my Jazz library needed more than the big 3 (Miles, Coltrane, & Brubeck for me). Looking forward to these

So the guy presumably has KoB, A Love Supreme and Take Five?

I can understand people wanting to have the best sounding versions of music that they love but it seems ridiculous to me to buy music simply because the remastering job is fantastic.

Different strokes and all that I suppose.

I said it sort of tongue in cheek up above but this really epitomizes the attitude. Its aural masturbation for audiophile wankers.

[RDK]

... and pictures of the master tape boxes (now stored at Iron Mountain facilities):

http://www.musicmattersjazz.com/sound.html

the tape boxes that are pictured on this site ... these are the master tapes for producing the original lp's, right ?

but, these are not the original session tapes, right ?

these master tapes are dubbed from the original session tapes ... or am i wrong ?

I believe you are wrong. These are the original session tapes and not the compressed and/or EQ'd LP masters. These should also be the same ones used for producing the RVG and other BN releases.

[Christiern]

They are marked "original" and that should be taken literally. In the pre-digital days, dubbing always resulted in some loss of the original signal--to master from a dub would have been ludicrous.

I should add that safeties were often made by recording on a second deck simultaneously, but that resulted in two original tapes, not a dub.

Edited September 17, 2007 by Christiern

[Chuck Nessa]

They are marked "original" and that should be taken literally. In the pre-digital days, dubbing always resulted in some loss of the original signal--to master from a dub would have been ludicrous.

Correct. The lp masters would have be cut from the session masters. Why not?, the tapes would never leave Rudy's studio - he cut the lp masters too. It was different with the "majors".

[RDK]

Heh. Speaking of using the "original master tapes," someone over at the Hoffman forums was creamin' his BVDs over the idea that the "original session tapes" would be used for this 45 series. I posted that I didn't think that that in itself was that big an issue since the current CD reissues (the RVG series at least) were mastered from those same tapes. And sure enough, my (rather innocent imo) post was deleted. Damn touchy over there!