The Piano

[Parkertown]

Here's a topic I have thought about for a long time:

The piano in Rudy's studio(s)

Since a piano is somewhat of a big, heavy, clunky instrument, does this mean that all of the recordings made at Rudy's studio(s) were all done...ON THE SAME PIANO? That's some historic piano if so. What type of piano was it? Upright? Baby Grand? Did everyone like it? I recall reading that Bill Evans dislike the piano at, was it, Reeves Sound? Who was in charge of caring for Rudy's piano?

Edited March 11, 2003 by Parkertown

[jazzhound]

You may have to contact Cedar Walton or Horace Silver to get insight into that question.

Cedar cut an album there recently and of course recorded there in the early sixties.

Horace is probably the only living pianist who recorded at Rudy's home studio and Englewood Cliffs.

[Jim Alfredson]

Not only that, but every organist that recorded at Rudy's studio used the same Hammond! Which blows my mind because it sounds so different with each player.

Granted, he mic'd the Leslie different for each player.

Note: My mentor believes that Rudy did not use a direct box along with mic'ing the Leslie on his recordings. He says he mic'd a Hammond speaker. (Hammond speakers are stationary, not moving like the Leslie). Anyone know for sure?

[jim anderson]

rudy had 2 steinways, which he reportedly maintained himself.

i believe he still has 2, but the main one is a new steinway 'd' (9' concert grand)

[michel devos]

I consider a Steinway "D" almost like a human being...Each one has its own personality, already present in his prime youth, when it is not even "played in".

His character will develop with time, as the wood body and table get into their definitive, matured shape, when the hammers move totally free, when the felts have taken the hammer imprints and have the right density, when the strings fall into place...etc...

You can easily imagine, with all these parameters , that 2 pianos seldom sound alike, not to mention the hands who play them...Tuning is of course of paramount importance : there are several techniques used for this, setting the ratios between corresponding keys slightly higher or lower, giving a kind of growl or breathing to the sound...The piano can be tuned to be spot on in octaves or in fifth or...else.The voicing has a definite influence over the produced sounds and this needs frequent adjustments , depending on how the instrument has been played, the temperature and hygrometry of the room etc...

Whew...no wonder a concert piano is as capricious as a diva but, if you know how to care for it, the reward will be one of the most sumptuous tones ever produced...This is just to underline the influence the instrument has over the produced sound, regardless of the pianist.Of course, the player has the final word over the final performance, even with a so-so instrument, but that makes it even more difficult to make valid comparisons.

IMO, recording a concert grand is an "exercice de style" for every sound engineer and I read various opinions over the results Rudy got from it, notably in Richard Cook book The Biography/Blue Note Records(Secker and Warburg Random House London).It would be extremely interesting to hear opinions of the knowledgeable people we have in this forum about it.

There are many interesting pianists in the BN stable who were recorded by Rudy on his Steinways : I like the music of Horace Silver, Herbie Hancock, Andrew Hill,The 3 Sounds, Michel Petrucciani, Keith Jarret etc... and I would like very much to read your comments on the perceived sound quality of their records

Thanks guys..

[Jim Alfredson]

I've never been thrilled with Rudy's piano sound. I think Farber and/or Jim Anderson do a much better job.

[David Williams]

Can't say I like it either, but it's irrelevant at this point really; and anyway, it can't be denied it helps gives the recordings a unique character.

Your post is a thought-provoker, Michel. I'm no expert I'm afraid, and the clown in me can't help wondering which particular tuning technique they used at the Cafe Bohemia in the 50's.

[mikeweil]

I too think others did a better piano sound than RVG - have to admit he never was among my favourite engineers - but there are exceptions to the rule: Hank Jones' August 1956 solo piano sessions for Savoy "Have You Met Hank Jones?". Beautiful piano sound, helped of course by Hank's delicate touch, the liner says he thought this was one of the finest pianos he ever played. Can't understand why this was never reissued by Denon; I would have got me a copy the day it was out. To me, one of the best solo piano LPs in jazz history.

[michel devos]

Can't say I like it either, but it's irrelevant at this point really; and anyway, it can't be denied it helps gives the recordings a unique character.

Your post is a thought-provoker, Michel. I'm no expert I'm afraid, and the clown in me can't help wondering which particular tuning technique they used at the Cafe Bohemia in the 50's.

Aargh...good question but with no answer, except from the tuner who did the job....

I would expect in the '50 in a jazz club the tuning would be a plain octaves one : which isn't bad : I know places around here who require a tuner once a year, just as for the central heating system

[jim anderson]

One thing I did, last spring, was to place my 15 year old Steinway B at Avatar Studios in NYC, available for recording. I've never been happier.

[Parkertown]

Hi Jim,

Has anyone recorded on your piano yet in it's new home?

[jim anderson]

Many have recorded on it. Pete Malinverni, Jon Mayer, and Gary Smulyan's new one cd's, all on Reservoir; Roland Hanna and Eddie Higgins for Venus (both soon to be released); Bebo Valdes recorded his big band and a small group using it; Ron Carter's trio with Russell Malone and Mulgrew Miller, soon to be released on Somethin'Else (japan) and eventually Blue Note; Bill Charlap playing with the Phil Woods Quintet soon to be released on Verticle Jazz;

Marc Copland and Greg Osby did a duo session for Nagel-Heyer; Eric Reed and Kenny Asher used it on a new singer for N-Coded, Raya Yarbrough. So, it's seeing some very nice usage.

Also some other engineers have started using it: James Farber and David Baker to name a couple.

Edited March 29, 2003 by jim anderson

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The two pianos that Van Gelder has are termed by some as "the Bud Powell" and "the Bill Evans," (for fairly obvious reasons). He still has two.

As I mentioned in another thread, there are plenty of people who recorded at both Hackensack and Englewood Cliffs - Horace is certainly not the only living pianist to have done so.

Ray Bryant, Hank Jones, Duke Jordan, Herman Foster, Hod O'Brien, Barry Harris, Freddie Redd, and Marian McPartland definitely recorded at both.

Maybe Gil Coggins, Randy Weston, Jon Mayer, John Coates, Sal Mosca, Cliff Smalls, Johnny Williams, all of whom recorded at Hackensack - not sure if they recorded at Englewood Cliffs (so many discographies incorrectly list simply "New York" for Van Gelder Studio) but they still have the opportunity to do so.

Mike

[Parkertown]

The two pianos that Van Gelder has are termed by some as "the Bud Powell" and "the Bill Evans," (for fairly obvious reasons). He still has two.

Wow! Thanks Mike, that's really cool to know.

Jim:

Your piano is definitely getting some mileage. That's great, but I've only heard of a few of the musicians you mentioned. I need to branch out...

[Jim R]

In my opinion, Eddie Higgins is in his prime right now. His Venus CD's are nothing short of breathtaking, but his work for Sunnyside and other labels is also just outstanding. Eddie sells his recordings (including some CD's not available anywhere else) via mail order. Anybody who may be interested can send me a private message.

I'm going to "up" my Eddie Higgins thread, but I'll add a comment here as well. Eddie's online discographer, Bill Gallagher, just recently added some quotes from Eddie regarding a number of sessions he made over the years. They're a nice addition to the webpage, and I would highly recommend a visit. Eddie states that Art Blakey offered him the piano chair in the Jazz Messengers, circa 1960. Someday I'd like to hear the whole story...

Eddie Higgins discography

[jim anderson]

Jim,

You're missing Eddie's "My Foolish Heart" on Venus, featuring Scott Hamilton. It was recorded at Avatar Studios on September 26 & 27, 2002.

Steve Gilmore was on bass and Bill Goodwin is on drums.

And I totally agree with you, Eddie is in teriffic form.

Jim Anderson

[shrugs]

Peter Pfister always captures the sound of the piano.

[Robert J]

Hi Jim,

My first querie.

Rudy's pianos always sound like they were miked with the lid down, yet there was probably not something efficient like PZM mikes to do so. Was the lid down? How exactly were they miked?

I have done some recordings of myself on a 9' Steinway in a church and I experimented with the lid down/up variance and I got unique results. It depends on the size of the room too.

Rudy always seemed to have that (paradoxical) bright/muddy attack that never really seemed present in most Steinway's I've tried! Although when I got into jazz piano at 17, I liked that sound, I'd say now that it's not my favourite color of the piano, though I recognize its siginificance on me. In my ignorance in my teens I almost thought BN had just one pianist!

[Philip]

The booklet to the BN Nichols set has several photos of the piano/microphone set-up, in which the lid is up. The arrangement at Hackensack appears to be a Neumann M60 above the hammers, the ubiquitous Neumann U47 over the side of the right side to pick up from the sound board and a smaller microphone to geat some ambient sound from the room. I don't recall a photo at Engelwood Cliffs with the lid being anything other than up, as in the Andrew Hill avatar on my left.

[Robert J]

Thanks Philip for the info.

[jim anderson]

I do know that sometimes RVG would put a pair of KM 84's, or if it were an earlier time, KM 54's or KM 56's (I may have those numbers incorrect, but I know what they look like) facing straight down to the sound board in the holes on the piano's harp. Each one hole in from both ends. It gives even coverage on the piano, but has that slightly stuffy sound that lacks articulation.

And the piano's lid would be fully open.

Edited April 26, 2003 by jim anderson

[Alexander]

I recall reading that Bill Evans dislike the piano at, was it, Reeves Sound?

My recollection is that Evans didn't like Van Gelder as an engineer. He really disliked the way he mic'd the piano. Evans seemed to think it sounded flat and dead.