Kid Ory and Django sets are on the way...

[DrJ]

Pulled the trigger on both today, continuing along in my (mostly) chronological purchasing of Mosaics from earliest to latest released.

The Django was a no-brainer - I have many discs worth of stuff from JSP and other labels. I am very eagerly anticipating the sonic upgrade, the comments about sound improvement compared to other releases at the Web site (and seeing Malcolm Addey's name in the credits!) have my mouth watering.

Not too much out there on the Kid Ory set though. What can I expect? Anyone very happy or remorseful about picking that one up who can comment?

[sidewinder]

I have several of the disks from the Django acquired (funnily enough) from 'Djangos' and IMO the sound of the CDs is more than acceptable. Wonderful music - really timeless stuff. I really must pounce on the full set when I clear the latest Mosaic backlog..

Edited October 1, 2004 by sidewinder

[DrJ]

Yeah, sidewinder, from what's in my collection, the JSPs of Django's stuff sound really quite good to me. So if it's improved, it will have to sound REALLY excellent. Will post my opinions about that when the set arrives for sure.

[sidewinder]

DrJ - I think you're in for a treat. For a vinyl 'nut' like me to say the CDs sound great has to mean that Mosaic (specifically Malcolm) did a mighty fine job with this particular mastering.

I had no Django material in my collection before getting these disks but one spin made it pretty obvious we are talking natural genius of the guitar here. Enjoy !

[jazzbo]

I really like the Kid Ory, and I think you will too. A working band, a solid and sure group that knows the material and each other. Traditional repretoire done without a sense of "preservation." GREAT sound.

[wesbed]

The first time I listened to the Django Mosaic, it was good but, at the same time, was too much of a good thing. There is lots of playing on string instruments... violin, two or three guitars, and a bass. The music becomes a little tiring at times, to me, because I want to hear a couple of horns, maybe a piano, or a drum.

When I received my Django Mosaic, I listened to the first couple of disks, enjoyed them, then placed the box back on my shelf for about a year, still happy with my purchase.

As is always the case when it comes to jazz and me, I had an odd thought that I needed to hear some Django. I don't know why, my brain just decided it needed to hear Django. I started the first disk on my stereo, the Mosaic booklet in one hand, a good beer in the other, and listened, straight through to the first five disks. I'd never really 'heard' Django before. He's an incredible player... sometimes, while listening, it's possible to forget that he's playing an acoustic guitar. Django's playing, to me, was way ahead of it's time. He was playing things, in the 1930s, that are still being played today. Stephane Grappelli is my favorite jazz violinist, however, his playing gets a little old, at times, when listening to too many of the Django Mosaic disks in a row. Sometimes I want to hear more Django and less Grappelli (not that there is any real problem with Grappelli).

When reading the Mosaic booklet, listening to Django, and thinking of what was happening, in Europe, while Django was playing in Paris, provides for a very rewarding experience. The music is good, Django is, most of the time, amazing, and Addey does his usual magic with the remastering.

This is a box that is fun to listen to and learn about. At the same time, while listening, don't be surprised if you find yourself craving the sound of a jazz horn, a piano, or a drum.

[montg]

Here's an earlier thread on the Ory

ory thread

I really like this set. As I said before, Ory's tone is just so rich and alive and, fortuntately, well-recorded...beautiful stuff. And I love the Red Allen session--a classic session in my opinion. When this is gone we're not likely to see it again as Verve has, to my knowledge, never released even one Kid Ory CD in the CD era (nor, I beleive, have the Japanese).

Bring on the Verve George Lewis sets Mosaic!

[Harold_Z]

Bring on the Verve George Lewis sets Mosaic!

WORD !

I really love hearing guys like Ory - the pioneers of Jazz - in good sound.

The early records are great, but it adds another dimension to them to hear the participants in recordings without the limitiations of earlier records - you get a more realistic sense of their sound and you can bring that to the earlier records. They come alive.

The Django also sounds great -the best I've heard that material sound. Mosaic sound on vintage material as been outstanding. This set and the first JSP Django and you've got it going on.

[DrJ]

Ah, great, the anticipation is building! Glad to hear that the Ory is so well-regarded. I really am criminally short on Ory knowledge and material, looking forward to making his greater acquaintance.

[tatifan]

The SECOND Jsp Django set is basically ripped off transfers from the Mosaic set, and has nary a track not included in the (wonderful) Mosaic set -- I would still recommend the first JSP for the (well-transfered) tracks not included in the Mosaic. Anyone heard the newest JSP Django set with all the Rome recordings?

Have fun!

[jazzbo]

I like the Django in Rome set. . . . Nothing groundbreaking, but nice sounding swinging stuff!

[DrJ]

Well, having had a chance to listen to at least a couple discs worth of each, I'm thrilled with both of these sets.

The Django is definitely a step up in sound from even the JSPs - although perhaps this is a preference thing, some could conceivably not feel any great improvement. The JSPs to my ears sound just a bit more "transparent" but they lack the immediacy and presence of the Mosaic remasters. On the Mosaic, it is truly like being in the room - really remarkable. Also, and I'm not sure how Addey does it, there is less noise in the Mosaic remasters but as I mentioned it didn't seem to sacrifice any of the presence (and specifically didn't filter off the high end like some of the processes such as NoNOISE seem to do). Also the booklet is Grade A, superb - that alone would make it worth trading in your JSP set (hey it was cheap anyway, so no big loss). Again I'm focusing on sound because I'm assuming if you've heard this stuff you already love it - so no need to convince you there!

The Ory sounds fantastic - another amazing Addey job. The music is for me uniformly good, sometimes great. The booklet is quite informative although I feel it's one of those Mosaic essays that is overly critical. Some of the stuff Richard Hadlock points out as being negatives I don't hear, at least not yet. Basically, I don't think this is the type of music that stands up to deep analysis - you listen and you let it take you and you enjoy it when you're in the mood. So far these are the only New Orleans jazz recordings in my collection that actually sound and (more importantly) FEEL as though you are watching a group on stage - and it brings back some fond memories of local traditional jazz festivals like the one down in Monterey (which features some hokum "dixieland" stuff but a lot of really legit performers). Plus you can bask in Ory's remarkable tone. The Atlantic New Orleans Jazz Mosaic sounds real good, but either the original recordings or the remasterings (or both) can't touch these in terms of bringing the music to life.

[pryan]

Glad you're enjoying your recent purchases, Dr, J. I received the Teagarden Roulette sessions yesterday, and am really liking it so far (I've only listened to the first disc). I'd definitely recommend it if you are into Tea.

Do you find the Ory set to be too much (it is 8 discs after all)? I dig Ory, but am only familiar with his work on the Hot Fives sessions. How does this later material compare?

[tatifan]

Well, having had a chance to listen to at least a couple discs worth of each, I'm thrilled with both of these sets.

The Django is definitely a step up in sound from even the JSPs - although perhaps this is a preference thing, some could conceivably not feel any great improvement. The JSPs to my ears sound just a bit more "transparent" but they lack the immediacy and presence of the Mosaic remasters. On the Mosaic, it is truly like being in the room - really remarkable. Also, and I'm not sure how Addey does it, there is less noise in the Mosaic remasters but as I mentioned it didn't seem to sacrifice any of the presence (and specifically didn't filter off the high end like some of the processes such as NoNOISE seem to do). Also the booklet is Grade A, superb - that alone would make it worth trading in your JSP set (hey it was cheap anyway, so no big loss). Again I'm focusing on sound because I'm assuming if you've heard this stuff you already love it - so no need to convince you there!

I'm a bit confused, because there are 2 JSP sets (well, 3 with the '49 Rome stuff now), and 2/3rds of that first one's contents are not contained in the Mosaic at all, so I don't think you would want to trade that one away, especially because the transfer work is exemplary on the non-Mosaic issued material.

But, as far as I can tell, JSP has "borrowed" the Mosaic transfers of the rest (and the entire 2nd set, rendering that one useless) -- whether it has resulted in a degraded version of the Mosaic transfers, I don't know (haven't done and a/b for quite a while) -- but to me they are clearly derived from the same sources, and not legally so (in JSPs case, as has sadly become common with them). Are you comparing the tracks that are in common between JSP V. 1 (near the end of the set) and the Mosaic? The earlier stuff in the JSP WILL sound different because it's from very different recordings and pressings (and not the masters that Mosaic had to utilize).

Edited October 14, 2004 by tatifan

[montg]

Wait until you get to the Red Allen sessions Dr. J. It only gets better!

[DrJ]

Pryan - in some ways the Ory set could be considered "too much," if one were to look at it as something to be devoured in one sitting. But I like to savor these types of sets over a very long time period, gradually exploring periodically. In that sense I think it's just right! As far as musical quality, I don't think Ory's tone suffered even a little bit as he got older. It's hard to directly compare his work on the Armstrong dates with this later stuff given the huge differences in recording technology, but he sounds mighty fine in both eras to me, really changed very little although as Hadlock shrewdly observes Ory had very "big ears" and was always open to new ideas. You can hear the influence of the swing era masters and even a bit of bop and pop in his playing on the Verve set.

BTW I'm really looking forward to the Teagarden Roulette - and will probably be getting a second copy for my dad for Christmas, he's a huge Teagarden fan.

tatifan - I only compared the Mosaic with the 2nd of the JSP sets, that one COMPLETELY overlapped with the Mosaic box (pretty much identical). You're correct about the first JSP volume of earlier Django, that one is mostly NOT represented in the Mosaic so I kept that one. I have not delved into the Rome recordings yet so can't comment there. You may be right about the common sources for the Mosaic and JSP stuff, but for some reason there are sonic differences - maybe these reflect differences in CD production or something. However, I didn't think the remasterings were actually the same, even if they were working from common sources - Addey did the remastering for the Mosaic, but I thought Davies did all the ones for JSP (although now that I don't have the set anymore I can't check to be sure)?

montg - I am looking forward to those Allen sessions!

[jazzbo]

The first JSP set is remastered by Ted Kendall. I have never heard the second and have never owned it; I believe that the remastering is uncredited, and I'm 99% certain it was not by Davies or Kendall (would have been credited). The fact that it is uncredited, like the work on many of their other most recent sets, makes ME inclined to think "lifted" is the method.

[DrJ]

Ah, thanks for setting the record straight Lon. Assuming the 2nd JSP is from same remasters as the Mosaic, it is very interesting how different they end up sounding. Maybe the same type of phenomenon at work that results in US and Japanese RVGs sounding different even in those instances where there is the same RVG remastering source.

[jazzbo]

Or consider this: take the Mosaic set, dump the tracks into a computer, apply some judicious equalization, voila: "new" remastering as far as the law is concerned (I think), certainly in the world of advertising weasel words this would qualify as "new." Probably the same thing occurred from the Revenant to the JSP Charley Patton sets (I've heard neither of those).

[DrJ]

Yeah, kind of a depressing thought but probably closest to the mark. Too bad given what a classy operation JSP once seemed to be. When I bought the JSP box I honestly had no idea they were doing this stuff now - guess it's yet another company whose stuff I will be avoiding in the future.

[David Ayers]

Speaking of John R.T. Davies, here is his site which is being kept going for the time being (for those of you who haven't already seen it).

[RZangpo2]

I compared the Kendall and Addey remasterings last night. I A/B'd the track "After You've Gone" (disc 1 track 4 on the Mosaic set, disc 4 track 16 on the JSP). Kendall's had a bit more natural tonality and "air", as I would expect, but also quite a bit more surface noise. I've never minded surface noise on transferred 78s. First, I welcome it as evidence of no digital NR, and second, I find that the ears adjust to it within a few seconds, so it's easy to listen to the performance "through" the noise, as it were. However, in this case, it seems that the noise is similar in pitch to the lower range of Django's guitar. Part of Django's solo therefore gets lost in the noise. You can still sort of hear what he's doing -- the brain supplies the missing notes -- but the sound of his guitar is missing. On the Mosaic, there is much less noise, but the sound is also a bit more closed-in and "airless" than the JSP. Nonetheless, you can hear every note Django plays. The tremendous excitement of his solo comes through. It doesn't on the JSP. So my vote goes to the Mosaic. When I wanted to play this record for my wife, I played the Mosaic.

BTW, I think Django's solo on this record is fantastic! The most amazing moment is the chords at the very end of his solo, where he sort of "launches" Grapelli into the latter's second solo. I get an image of one acrobat tossing another into the air by his feet... Not surprisingly, Grapelli's second solo, after this tremendous "push" from Django, is a lot hotter than his first, which opens the record.

Edited October 22, 2004 by RZangpo2