Definitive Records... Legit label?

[Hardbopjazz]

I broke down and bought Ike Quebec's Swing Hi Swing Lo on Definitive records. It is no longer available on Blue Note, or I would have bought it from them. Anyone know if this is a legit label?

[Chuck Nessa]

I broke down and bought Ike Quebec's Swing Hi Swing Lo on Definitive records. It is no longer available on Blue Note, or I would have bought it from them. Anyone know if this is a legit label?

←

Where's the finger smilie?

[Claude]

It's legit in Europe (50 year copyright protection) but illegal in the US (70 years).

[Chuck Nessa]

It's legit in Europe (50 year copyright protection) but illegal in the US (70 years).

←

It is the "source" of the dubbings I object to. Be happy in "EU".

I do think mr. HB is in the US. It would be much better if these guys weren't so greedy they want to sell their free goods over here.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Chuck Nessa

[StormP]

It's legit in Europe (50 year copyright protection) but illegal in the US (70 years).

←

You're lucky Chuck Nesso didn't ask you to

Grow up dude!

[Hardbopjazz]

Well, it's the first and most likely the only one I would buy.

[Claude]

It would be much better if these guys weren't so greedy they want to sell their free goods over here.

←

Agreed, they should respect the national laws. Europe chose 50 years protection, the US 70 years (since 1989), so the CDs with 40's and 50's material should not be on the US market.

But the role of the big US stores (like CD Universe or Tower Records) which sell those titles should also be questioned. Why do they import CDs that are clearly illegal in the US?

[wolff]

But the role of the big US stores (like CD Universe or Tower Records) which sell those titles should also be questioned. Why do they import CDs that are clearly illegal in the US?

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I've questioned them numerous times and get nothing but a very, very thick stone wall. My guess, it's all about the $$$. That's it, pure and simple. They are cheap and most people only want the cheapest. Therefore, they sell.

Edited August 11, 2005 by wolff

[sheldonm]

It's legit in Europe (50 year copyright protection) but illegal in the US (70 years).

←

You're lucky Chuck Nesso didn't ask you to

Grow up dude!

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....who's Chuck Nesso?

[Christiern]

It ain't Nesso sarily so, but I believe he is a counter tenor from Brest.

[Chuck Nessa]

It ain't Nesso sarily so, but I believe he is a counter tenor from Brest.

←

More likely a bargain counter tenor at breast.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The way I see it, it's only a matter of time before the EU laws change to 70 years. All it's going to take is when those Beatles dates start hitting the magic "50". Watch how much pressure gets put on the Parliament then! Elvis's stuff has put a lot of pressure already but face it, he's American. When those Beatles/Stones et al start getting this treatment, the English lords will act.

Kevin

[Claude]

The pressure is already there. But it's a EU decision, the member states cannot act independently in this matter. Only the EU Commission can propose such a change.

Edited August 11, 2005 by Claude

[GA Russell]

But the role of the big US stores (like CD Universe or Tower Records) which sell those titles should also be questioned. Why do they import CDs that are clearly illegal in the US?

←

I've questioned them numerous times and get nothing but a very, very thick stone wall. My guess, it's all about the $$$. That's it, pure and simple. They are cheap and most people only want the cheapest. Therefore, they sell.

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I think it's more a matter of availability. I have wanted to buy The Four Freshmen's first album, Voices In Modern, for nearly twenty years. It's never been available.

Now that it is available from Europe out of copyright, all of a sudden Capitol has released an official version.

[Rosco]

There may be changes to the 50 year rule if record companies get their way. See here.

[mikeweil]

There may be changes to the 50 year rule if record companies get their way. See here.

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I would accept that, but only if there's a passage that ownership of the recordings includes the duty to maintain them and keep them available for the public, even rare stuff that sells only in samll quantities. CD on demand would be an option.

In Germany there is Books on demand, which enables anyone to publish their stuff, the book is printed when ordered and delivered within days. Why not the same for seldom ordered music?

[Claude]

I would accept that, but only if there's a passage that ownership of the recordings includes the duty to maintain them and keep them available for the public, even rare stuff that sells only in samll quantities. CD on demand would be an option.

←

It's impossible to legally force someone to manufacture and sell a product. The provisions in intellectual property laws that usually try to solve this type of problem are compulsory licenses.

If the rightholder does not exploit his exclusive right, anyone is allowed to use/manufacture/sell the product/work, but has to pay a licensing fee to the right holder (amount determined by a court if no agreement is possible).

This exists in patent law, in order to guarantee that the public benefits from important inventions. It also exists in copyright law, but only for radio broadcasting. When a radio station wants to play a record, it doesn't have to ask the rightholder for permission, but has to pay a fee according to a schedule agreed upon by a commission comprised of rightholders and users.

If this was also applicable to CD releases, it would mean that if a labels thinks it isn't worth reissuing a recording or keeping it in print, it will have to accept that other labels release it, but it will receive a "reasonable" licensing payment in return (which is usually lower than a voluntary licensing fee).

Edited August 11, 2005 by Claude

[Hardbopjazz]

So where does Definitive Records get their sources from in order to make a release on their label? I doubt, in the case of the Ike CD, Blue Note said, "here are the masters, have fun." Are they making their releases from older issued CD's, or from records that are in mint condition?

Edited August 11, 2005 by Hardbopjazz

[wolff]

So where does Definitive Records get their sources from in order to make a release on their label? I doubt, in the case of the Ike CD, Blue Note said, "here are the masters, have fun." Are they making their releases from older issued CD's, or from records that are in mint condition?

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Yes. As I've said before, their source is an LP or CD. Not any different than me burning a CDR for you from my collection.

Why these labels are given any more respect than someone selling/offering CDR's

is laughable.

[J.A.W.]

Why these labels are given any more respect than someone selling/offering CDR's

is laughable.

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My thoughts exactly.

[wolff]

Here is an example of how bad it is getting.

Check out this PD development posted on another board. A couple companies, one in the USA, getting together to make CDR's and import them to USA. If anyone can give me the step by step legalities of this, I'd appreciate it.

Ever wonder why record companies don't ask you what you want? Well, now they do! Eric Records will soon begin importing exclusive releases from an exciting new label in England specializing in hard-to-find favorites from the mid-1950's and earlier. But the good part is, we want YOU to tell US what you want on these CD's - which artists, what songs, even how you'd like them thematically organized!

Let's say you've always wanted an album of rare songs by Patti Page. Or, how about a disc with your favorite Louis Jordan jump 'n' jive? Or, would you dig a sh-boomin' collection of Crew Cuts? Or, a compendium of old-time, country Christmas classics by Tex Ritter?

It's your pick! These moderately-priced CD's will have up to 30 songs each - songs that you can help choose! Just remember, these tracks must have been recorded before 1956. To give us your suggestions, email sales@ericrecords.com.

Or, if you want to get intimately involved in the selection process - and perhaps receive a consulting fee - please contact Bill Buster, owner of Eric Records, by e-mail and tell him how much you know about music before 1956 and why you'd like to assist with these new releases. If you're an enthusiastic vintage music expert, we need your help!

Thanks for supporting Eric Records, an independent label dedicated to the music you love!

Bill Buster, President

Eric Records

"Music Worth Remembering"

These guys are hilarious. Putting together CDR compilations of ripped off material. LMAO!!

[Hardbopjazz]

That has to be illegal, no question about it.

[RDK]

These guys are hilarious. Putting together CDR compilations of ripped off material. LMAO!!

Well, if the material is in the Public Domain there's nothing illegal about it. There's a lot that's unethical about it and otherwise wrong, but nothing technically illegal. And yes, no different from my burning a CDR for you of PD material.

Another question: is it also wrong for JSP to put out Louis Armstrong compilations drawn from old 78s? Except for the passage of time, those 78s could be considered "ripped off" materials as well. Is using a 78 (and "remastering it" for CD) any different than using an existing LP or CD pressing and "remastering it" for another CD? It's funny how people will defend labels like JSP or Chronological Classics for what they're doing - they use the 50 year EU PD rules to their advantage too - but criticize Proper and so many other labels for doing the exact same thing.

[Claude]

Eric Records will soon begin importing exclusive releases from an exciting new label in England specializing in hard-to-find favorites from the mid-1950's and earlier.

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To comply with US laws, he should have said "mid-1930's and earlier". Legally speaking, importing a mid-1950's CD from Definitive or Proper into the US is just like importing counterfeits of the newest pop albums.

Definitive is always making sure to be in line with EU laws, but the US dealers don't care about US laws.

[Claude]

Is using a 78 (and "remastering it" for CD) any different than using an existing LP or CD pressing and "remastering it" for another CD?

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Currently, jurisprudence does not recognize remastering work as something worth of copyright protection. So when Definitive reissues mid-50's Miles or Monk material, they can copy the music from Blue Note RVG or Fantasy CDs. Most of us consider this wrong ethically, but the law only cares about the musical performance, not the work necessary to remaster or even restore the recording.