I dig Betty Carter!

[Bright Moments]

I recently discovered and fell in love with the deep, breathy vocals of Betty Carter. She really belts out the standards and also can scat lightning fast. My favorite (so far) is "Social Call" (see below), but I'm looking for recommendations.

Can anybody tell me some interesting tidbits about Betty, her life & loves?

B)

Edited February 28, 2004 by Evan

[Free For All]

Can anybody tell me some interesting tidbits about Betty, her life & loves?

When I initially saw the title I thought it said "I did Betty Carter" so I was about to ask you the same question!

[Christiern]

I liked her back in the days when she more or less emulated Sarah Vaughan, but when she tried to forcefeed herself with a "unique" style, I thought she became grotesque and--for me--painful to listen to. I can think of no other accomplished professional jazz vocalist who has butchered familiar ballads as severely as Betty Carter.

I don't think very many people agree with me, but that's my honest opinion.

[Nate Dorward]

Christiern--here's one more person in your camp, anyway.

[TedR]

I also agree with Christiern (thank you for your warm welcome Chris after I wrote my first post; Free for All too). Saw her perform early/mid 90's maybe. I admired her band leading skills. Excellent experience for those younger musicians in her group. But her singing and facial expressions were so over the top I just kept thinking...... please, just once, sing a song.

[JSngry]

Y'all are just plain WRONG!

[DrJ]

I like her, most of the time. Sometimes pushed it over the top, no question, but there was a method to her mannerisms most of the time.

FINALLY is a great album...

"The Sun Died," well whoah doggies, that's the vocal jazz STUFF.

Edited February 28, 2004 by DrJ

[Nate Dorward]

C'mon Jim, you can do better than that! Sorry, I shouldn't be fishing for one of your illuminating mini-essays on individual artists....

It's not that I don't get anything out of Carter--The Audience With... is a fine album, no question--but yeah, I find the mangling of tunes often very frustrating, & there's no chills-down-the-spine emotional directness to what she does. I got rid of Feed the Fire because I just couldn't take what she did to "Lover Man" for instance. I feel the same way about "Deep Night" on Audience.

[Pete C]

I'm mixed on her, but I highly recommend the live album she did with Carmen McRae at the Great American Music Hall. The interplay between the two of them is a ball.

[robviti]

i dig her too. here's the one to look for:

[Free For All]

I'm partial to this one.........

[jazz1]

I I can think of no other accomplished professional jazz vocalist who has butchered familiar ballads as severely as Betty Carter.

I don't think very many people agree with me, but that's my honest opinion.

I agree with you 100%, so many beautiful songs wasted, butchered, destroyed,

I quite like her early stuff including the albulm with Ray Charles.

Helen Merrill being my favorite I suppose that Betty Carter could not be further

away in style from La belle Helen.

[Tom Storer]

Count me in the pro-Betty camp all the way. Her point of view was that she didn't have the pipes of a Sarah Vaughan or an Ella Fitzgerald, but she did have an unusual amount of originality, so she went all the way into her own concept of arranging songs for jazz vocals. As far as I'm concerned, her concept was absolutely brilliant. I think Carter and Sheila Jordan were the last great originals in the mainstream jazz vocal tradition. Maybe throw in Abbey Lincoln, too. Whether you like Carter's stuff or not, nobody approached jazz vocals like she did.

If she had had a stronger voice and vocal technique, she could have ruled the world. As it was, there are things about her voice and delivery that are like nails on a blackboard to many. There was a nasal and breathy quality about her singing, and, especially in the later years of her career, her pitch could be problematic. For me, that was more than made up for by her imagination, swing and emotional commitment.

And those arrangements were flat-out great. Some examples:

From "Introducing Betty Carter": "Look No Further," "My Favorite Things," "Spring Can Really Hang You Up The Most," "Something Big"

From "Finally": all three medleys ("Seems Like Old Times/I Remember You/Remember," "Body and Soul/Heart and Soul," "I Didn't Know What Time It Was/All The Things You Are/I Could Write A Book"); the bass-voice duo on "Blue Moon"; "All Through The Day"

From "'Round Midnight": "My Shining Hour," "By The Bend In The River," "Surrey With The Fringe On Top"

From "Now It's My Turn": "Music, Maestro, Please/Swing, Brother, Swing," "I Was Telling Him About You," "Wagon Wheels," "Making Dreams Come True," "Just Friends/Star Eyes"

From "The Betty Carter Album": "What Is It?," "We Tried," "Sister Candy," "Tight," "Sounds,"

From "The Audience": "I Think I Got It Now," "Everything I Have Is Yours," "Trolley Song," "Carribean Sun," "I'll Buy You A Star"

From "Look What I Got": "That Sunday, That Summer," "The Man I Love," "Imagination," "Make It Last," "The Good Life"

From "Whatever Happened To Love": "What A Little Moonlight Can Do"

From "It's Not About The Melody": "Stay As Sweet As You Are," "When It's Sleepy Time Down South," "Dip Bag," "You're Mine, You"

That's a hell of a legacy. There are plenty of singers who sing the songs straight and emote effectively, but precious few who have pushed the envelope like Carter did. The abstract quality of her interpretations put off many mainstream fans who wanted to hear the songs sung in a traditional narrative way.

Another thing to note is that Carter didn't record well. Live, her voice had vibrancy and color that for some reason was virtually always flattened and thinned on recordings. She toured constantly and had her share of bad nights, when her voice was husky and lacking flexibility, but even then she pushed her trio hard; and when she was on--which, up through the end of the 80's anyway, was very often, and I know because I saw her many times--she was a consummate performer and unceasingly inventive. Those trios of hers swung like crazy, you would be in a sweat by the time the night was over. Betty was one of the greatest jazz singers ever.

[Christiern]

Tom, take a good look at my posts to this thread. Based on the two posts, don't you think it's a bit overboard to complain that I was snide, contemptuous, exhibited "nasty intensity," etc.?

• "Betty was one of the greatest jazz singers ever."--Tom Storer
  
  ????????????????
  • Billie Holiday, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McRae, Dinah Washington, Helen Merrill, Ella Fitzgerald, Maxine Sullivan
    

    Betty Carter did not measure up to any of the above, IMO. Her "unusual amount of originality" was a strained effort to be different. If I want to hear "an unusual amount of originality," I tune in to American Idol.

Please note my emphasis (in red/bold). The last remark was an attempt at humor--sorry you didn't get it.

-----------------------

Here's my second post

• I liked her back in the days when she more or less emulated Sarah Vaughan, but when she tried to forcefeed herself with a "unique" style, I thought she became grotesque and--for me--painful to listen to. I can think of no other accomplished professional jazz vocalist who has butchered familiar ballads as severely as Betty Carter.
  
  I don't think very many people agree with me, but that's my honest opinion.
  

I expressed my opinion, clearly stating that it is my opinion, and I explained what it is about Betty Carter's latter day performances that made me formulate that opinion.

Nasty, contemptuous, snide?

Edited February 29, 2004 by Christiern

[Nate Dorward]

If I want to hear "an unusual amount of originality," I tune in to American Idol.

C'mon, you can do better than a cheap put-down like that.

Actually I'm fully prepared to recognize Carter's greatness, but that still doesn't mean I actually like listening to her work that much. -- Hm, I wouldn't put her together with Sheila Jordan, though--Jordan can sing a "good old depressing ballad" (as she once put it when I saw her) that'll knock you flat. Her idol, after all, is Billie Holiday.

[Tom Storer]

"Betty was one of the greatest jazz singers ever."--Tom Storer

????????????????

Billie Holiday, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McRae, Dinah Washington, Helen Merrill, Ella Fitzgerald, Maxine Sullivan

Betty Carter did not measure up to any of the above, IMO.

Our opinions differ. Incidentally, have you listened to her recordings of the long list of songs I listed above? Maybe you could give some chapter and verse examples of her "grotesqueness" so at least I'd know precisely what rubs you the wrong way.

Her "unusual amount of originality" was a strained effort to be different. If I want to hear "an unusual amount of originality," I tune in to American Idol.

Chris, you slam Betty Carter so hard every single chance you get that I wonder if you and she didn't have some sort of conflict in real life. We know you can't stand her music, because you said so earlier in the thread, and not for the first time; some of us loved it, so maybe we can say so without getting a waspish comment every time we do.

Let me pre-empt your next post by declaring that I absolutely accept your God-given right to express your opinion.

[Christiern]

As I stated earlier, there was a time when I found Betty Carter's singing enjoyable.

No, I never met her nor have I ever had any conflict with her--it always amazes me when people conclude that there must be some personal animosity in play when an artist is criticized. I've heard the same crap from Wynton lovers. Why is it so difficult to accept the fact that some people don't share your enthusiasm? It does not bother me that you embrace an artist who I find grating, and when you repeatedly express your adoration, I don't jump to the conclusion that you are reflecting a personal love experience. Don't you see how ludicrous such arguments are?

[JSngry]

Well, hey. I dig her very much. I like her audaciousness and her willingness to not be a "singer of songs" as much as a "vocal interpreter" who took somewhat the same approach to the material that a horn player might. Not for nothing did she title one of her albums "It's Not About The Melody". Nor, apparently, was it about the words.

What and where does that leave a singer to work with? It leaves them working without a net and just with their imagination. I can see how Carter's approach is off-putting to some, and I don't doubt that she could safely be classified as an "accquired taste". But it's definitely a taste that I have accquired.

And seeing her live, sitting off to the side of the bandstand and behind her was one of the most intense listening experiences I've ever had. The only time I got to see her face was when she turned around to face the band, and she only turned around to face the band when she wanted them to go somewhere other than where they were. I tell you, if I was working that gig, I'd be ready for ANYTHING at any time, and if I missed picking up on her direction, I think I'd sleep with one eye open that night. Hell, I kinda got nervous just WATCHING it. That's how focused and intense she was.

But the looks nad the demenor paid off - the band swung their ass of, and followed Betty to some pretty wild places. Like I said, not for everybody, no doubt, that kind of thng, but I sure dug it. Different strokes for different fokes!

[Tom Storer]

it always amazes me when people conclude that there must be some personal animosity in play when an artist is criticized.

It isn't the fact that you criticize her that irked me, Chris, it's the particularly snide and insistent way you do so, to the extent that when you put her down quite contemptuously and someone else says "well, I happen to think she's great," you don't just leave it at that but come in with another put-down in response, like clockwork. I'm sure there are plenty of musicians whose work you don't much like, but only Wynton and Betty Carter are certain-sure to attract your condemnation damn near every time they're mentioned, or so it seems. That's what led me to speculate about a personal thing--not that you criticize her, but the regularity and the especially hostile tone you use.

Don't you see how ludicrous such arguments are?

It wasn't an argument, it was a reaction to what I perceive as an unfortunate attitude on your part--that attitude not being the fact that you don't like Betty Carter's singing (you're not the only one on this thread), but the strangely nasty intensity that I believe I detect. The way I see it, you don't like her and that's fine with me, but I do like her and you can't accept that without getting in further digs at her. But this conversation is fruitless and I will now bow out.

[Bright Moments]

I'm really glad that i could start a thread full of so much controversy!!

[Out2Lunch]

I don't like Betty Carter either. I have tried on numerous occasions to listen and try to understand why many people like her singing but I only ended up with a headache. Her vocals are way out and grating as a matter of fact I think that listening to her could probably increase your(my) blood pressure. I like jazz vocals sometimes and find solstice and pleasure in Ella or Maxine Sullivan or Rosie Clooney,Barbara Lea.Helen Merrill,Carmen and many more. Betty Carter is not my cup or tea, but for those who like her, enjoy!

[Christiern]

Out2Lunch, are you sure you never had a personal run-in with Betty Carter????

_____________________

Tom, take a good look at my posts to this thread. Based on the two posts, don't you think it's a bit overboard to complain that I was snide, contemptuous, exhibited "nasty intensity," etc.?

• "Betty was one of the greatest jazz singers ever."--Tom Storer
  
  ????????????????
  • Billie Holiday, Bessie Smith, Sarah Vaughan, Carmen McRae, Dinah Washington, Helen Merrill, Ella Fitzgerald, Maxine Sullivan
    

    Betty Carter did not measure up to any of the above, IMO. Her "unusual amount of originality" was a strained effort to be different. If I want to hear "an unusual amount of originality," I tune in to American Idol.

Please note my emphasis (in red/bold). The last remark was an attempt at humor--sorry you didn't get it.

-----------------------

Here's my second post

• I liked her back in the days when she more or less emulated Sarah Vaughan, but when she tried to forcefeed herself with a "unique" style, I thought she became grotesque and--for me--painful to listen to. I can think of no other accomplished professional jazz vocalist who has butchered familiar ballads as severely as Betty Carter.
  
  I don't think very many people agree with me, but that's my honest opinion.
  

I expressed my opinion, clearly stating that it is my opinion, and I explained what it is about Betty Carter's latter day performances that made me formulate that opinion.

Nasty, contemptuous, snide?

[A Lark Ascending]

I'm very much in the pro-Betty Carter camp.

One of the performers who helped ease me in when I returned to jazz listening in the early 90s after a few years off. Her version of 'Stardust/Memories of You' is a magical reconstruction.

I have a special love of 'Feed the Fire' because I was there in the audience that night.

In these days when jazz singers are pouring out of every major label I just wish one or two would show her daring and willingness to really take liberties with the song.

Having said that I can understand totally why some listeners find her hard to take. I don't get Sheila Jordan...she always sounds flat to my ears!

[Nate Dorward]

Jim--if you want to read lots on Betty Carter's approach to bandleading & arranging, take a look at the many passages quoted from her former sidemen in Paul Berliner's Thinking in Jazz. (Carter & Barry Harris are the two music-mentor heros of the book.) Her band was of course a real boot camp for talented young players. That said, I find the most revealing thing in the book--& the point where I can see both the good things & the less good things about Carter's approach--is the anecdote of one pianist from her band (I'll quote this from memory rather than dig out the book): he was asked to play an instrumental number to open the set, so he & the other bandmembers picked "Remember", went up there & just played it--no arrangements worked out in advance, just a straightforward version of the tune. After the show Carter chewed them out: "I don't ever want to see you do that again." Because they had just got up there & played.

[Pete C]

I'm sure there are plenty of musicians whose work you don't much like, but only Wynton and Betty Carter are certain-sure to attract your condemnation damn near every time they're mentioned, or so it seems.

Tom, you're being very unfair to Chris. You forgot Mark Murphy.